By: bring_it_on
- 16th March 2017 at 15:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
GaN is the only logical option if given a choice
From recent memory, one customer (South Korea) was given a choice but chose a GaAs path. Performance alone is not always the determining factor..cost and risk also play a role. There is only one current fighter-radar supplier going around pushing for a GaN fighter AESA radar but has yet to fly it, and has yet to have its primary customer or its under-development product accept it. Once volume drives cost and risk out, you'll see more acceptance just like GaAs AESA radars. In the mean time most looking at this through the industrial capability pov will let the larger radar programs create the economies of scale that the smaller fighter applications can then piggy back on.
Distinctively through its appearance, AESA GaAs has a number of striking microchips on its surface, while AESA GaN is a flat surface.
both of APG-77/81 are GaAs tech ?
the spike you saw on radar aperture are T/R modules, which is a requirement for any AESA or PESA regardless whether it is GaAs or GaN. The flat cover on top of some AESA is just a cover to prevent modules counts and has nothing to do with the T/R modules themselves.
By: swerve
- 16th March 2017 at 23:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is only one current fighter-radar supplier going around pushing for a GaN fighter AESA radar but has yet to fly it, and has yet to have its primary customer or its under-development product accept it.
Are you referring to SAAB & its GaN array with a modified back end from the latest iteration of PS-05/A?
By: bring_it_on
- 17th March 2017 at 00:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are you referring to SAAB & its GaN array with a modified back end from the latest iteration of PS-05/A?
Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.
Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
By: garryA
- 17th March 2017 at 01:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SAAB GlobalEye is GaN based, and will have 70% more range than the previous GaAs version.
It is also able to detect stealth aircrafts at much larger distances
70% increase in detection range is quite decent, but i dont see it really change the situation much versus stealth, say for example if before you detect stealth platform from 25 km then now with GaN that number gone up to 42 km, still much shorter than the distance that a stealth platform can detect conventional assets.
By: APRichelieu
- 17th March 2017 at 05:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
70% increase in detection range is quite decent, but i dont see it really change the situation much versus stealth, say for example if before you detect stealth platform from 25 km then now with GaN that number gone up to 42 km, still much shorter than the distance that a stealth platform can detect conventional assets.
If I understand things correctly, current radar filters out small echos early in the process.
This reduces the number of echos that needs to be tracked.
By removing this filter, you get orders of magnitude more echoes to process,
but with enough processing power you can throw away uninteresting echoes like birds,
and detect the small echoes that are stealth aircraft.
This can of course be done with GaAs based Radars as well.
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By: obligatory
- 17th March 2017 at 07:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
70% increase in detection range is quite decent,
70% increase is decent you say ?
what would it take for you to say its a quantum leap then ?
New
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By: obligatory
- 17th March 2017 at 07:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set
yes, those are two unlucky customers that ordered the day before GaAs became obsolete,
same story as with F-35.
PAK-FA otoh got the timing right
By: bring_it_on
- 17th March 2017 at 09:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
yes, those are two unlucky customers that ordered the day before GaAs became obsolete,
same story as with F-35.
Don't forget the Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet and Strike Eagle/Eagle upgrades either. And also the Su-35, J-10, and J-20. Lots and lots of 'unlucky' customers out there of PESA or AESA radars apparently.
By: swerve
- 17th March 2017 at 10:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.
Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.
Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off. AFAIK it's only been bought by the USA for border surveillance, in its most basic form. We'll have to wait & see whether SAAB can get into that market. It's got a range of ground & ship-based radars which have recently been re-launched with GaN antennae, & the new versions are reported to be selling. The Erieye AEW radar also has its first customer for its GaN version. It's starting to build up the infrastructure you refer to. But others are also getting in there: Thales is offering GaN ground/ship-based radars.
By: bring_it_on
- 17th March 2017 at 10:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.
Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off. AFAIK it's only been bought by the USA for border surveillance, in its most basic form. We'll have to wait & see whether SAAB can get into that market. It's got a range of ground & ship-based radars which have recently been re-launched with GaN antennae, & the new versions are reported to be selling. The Erieye AEW radar also has its first customer for its GaN version. It's starting to build up the infrastructure you refer to. But others are also getting in there: Thales is offering GaN ground/ship-based radars.
Right. And as I said once volume drives out cost and risk the upgrades will become more appealing to potential customers, whether that is cutting in a new antenna on an existing acquisition program or upgrades to older antennas. Following ground based AESA developmental programs is part of my work, so I am fairly up to date on who is doing what but as I said volume is the key to bring cost down so it is going to make some difference in any manufacturers ability to move early or move into a market in a really big way.
That is why I had said that despite Northrop Grumman having the largest share of the future global fighter based AESA market, it is Raytheon's volume in terms of not only the sheer number of GaN AESA's being developed or proposed by it but the number they are building that will put the company in an advantageous position vis a vis their international and domestic competitors when it comes to offering solutions that are lower cost and lower risk.
By: APRichelieu
- 17th March 2017 at 12:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.
Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
SAAB announced in June 2016 that they had a prototype of a GaN AESA radar, and that they would be
flying soon.
Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
Despite undeniable performance advantageous for power applications and widespread usage in
military applications, commercial adoption of the technology for RF applications has been much
slower than expected. Initial concerns about reliability and repeatability have become moot as
deployed systems build a compelling set of actual metrics. The cost issue is much thornier. To
take full advantage of the material advantages of GaN, just about every RF manufacturer uses
a GaN-on-SiC wafer scheme. Low volumes, the cost of the SiC wafers, coupled with wafer
diameters in the 2” – 4” range all contribute to GaN devices being much more expensive than
competitive technologies. Research that we conducted three years ago had GaN running about
three times the price of GaAs and LDMOS in power applications
Commercial use of GaN based applications seem to be another piece in the puzzle of driving down costs. According the the above, 2017 will see a large growth in commercial use of GaN based electronics,
"It does appear that the RF market segments that have been discussed have passed the tipping point"
Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
Where does it say it will be flying soon? The article, and every article I've seen has stated the same thing
"We talked in India – we said if India would choose Gripen, then we would be willing to share this technology and co-develop it. We have a lot to contribute but we’re willing to share that
Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
How is that different to what I said?
A bit of correction on your dates - SAAB claims to have begun lab testing of the antenna configuration in 2014. The first I heard of this was in Oct. 2015 when they took a model of the radar antenna to a trade show in Seoul and that was widely reported at the time. To the best of my knowledge no flight test article has yet been delivered for testing. Since Korea did not show interest the marketing has shifted to India which is looking for an AESA for its light fighter. So far I have not seen any commitment from any Gripen-C customer so its future remains uncertain.
SAAB's official position vis-a-vis the radar was (as of Late 2015) -
The GaN radar, which Saab has not named, is not intended for the Gripen, says a Saab spokesperson. And it will not be flight tested until Saab has a customer with a specific aircraft application. The sensor has not been created for the Gripen E/F, because that aircraft is under development with the Selex Raven AESA radar, which uses gallium arsenide. ~ Bradley Perett, Bill Sweetmann AvWeek
By: Yama
- 17th March 2017 at 12:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.
Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off.
Isn't AESA Vixen pretty much same as Raven ES-05?
If one wants to take full advantage of GaN power, cooling of the array may be too challenging for mechanically steerable array.
By: swerve
- 17th March 2017 at 16:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep. I think the Raven ES-05 is a Gripen-specific model, but a Vixen 1000, presumably without whatever Swedish tweaks are in the Raven, is on the Selex website now. Selex has shown an antenna configuration for the F-16, but I think that may have been dropped as pointless in view of the US support for its own F-16 AESA radars.
The original, smallest, Vixen model, the 500E, has been sold to the US Customs & Border Protection, replacing old F-16 radars (from F-16As, I think) in border surveillance aircraft (operational for about 5 years now), & to the US Test Pilot School for some of its trainers. It was intended for armed trainers & light fighters.
The USCG has Selex Seaspray 7500E AESA radars in its HC-130s (operational in 2008, I think), but they're mainly for surface search. They're not fighter radars.
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By: obligatory
- 17th March 2017 at 20:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Like 3-4 times different in detection range
doesn't N036 Byelka use GaAs also ?
sounds like you are confused, a 70% increase is a quantum leap in capability,
it was revealed in pak-fa thread the production radar is going to be GaN, tho you would better ask
haavarla or TR-1 to point at the article
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By: bring_it_on - 16th March 2017 at 15:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From recent memory, one customer (South Korea) was given a choice but chose a GaAs path. Performance alone is not always the determining factor..cost and risk also play a role. There is only one current fighter-radar supplier going around pushing for a GaN fighter AESA radar but has yet to fly it, and has yet to have its primary customer or its under-development product accept it. Once volume drives cost and risk out, you'll see more acceptance just like GaAs AESA radars. In the mean time most looking at this through the industrial capability pov will let the larger radar programs create the economies of scale that the smaller fighter applications can then piggy back on.
Posts: 1,081
By: garryA - 16th March 2017 at 21:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK, all those are GaAs radar except J/APG-2
the spike you saw on radar aperture are T/R modules, which is a requirement for any AESA or PESA regardless whether it is GaAs or GaN. The flat cover on top of some AESA is just a cover to prevent modules counts and has nothing to do with the T/R modules themselves.
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By: swerve - 16th March 2017 at 23:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Are you referring to SAAB & its GaN array with a modified back end from the latest iteration of PS-05/A?
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By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2017 at 00:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes..so far there is no commitment from either of the two Gripen-NG customers to completely swap out the Selex's radar for SAAB's current set (SAAB categorically denied that this would be the case) and there is no program of record to do anything with the current Gripen-C installed base. As of yet it remains a test article that to my best knowledge has not been flight tested. When I first heard of it, during SAAB's PR efforts in South Korea it did appear that they were coming out as a fast mover and were looking to upgrade the current Gripen installed base while at the same time also seek new programs to integrate the sensor on. It now appears that they would require customer funding before they move ahead with serious development, testing and integration.
Volume has a great way of bringing cost down so short of a very large order, folks looking to upgrade fighters will be very picky in terms of what industrial efforts they decide to fund. Once you have other programs also leveraging the same industrial base for similar components you can then drive cost and risk out. This is the approach I see fighter AESA upgrades take once ground based sensors have created the infrastructure and reduced cost.
Posts: 1,081
By: garryA - 17th March 2017 at 01:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
70% increase in detection range is quite decent, but i dont see it really change the situation much versus stealth, say for example if before you detect stealth platform from 25 km then now with GaN that number gone up to 42 km, still much shorter than the distance that a stealth platform can detect conventional assets.
Posts: 145
By: APRichelieu - 17th March 2017 at 05:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If I understand things correctly, current radar filters out small echos early in the process.
This reduces the number of echos that needs to be tracked.
By removing this filter, you get orders of magnitude more echoes to process,
but with enough processing power you can throw away uninteresting echoes like birds,
and detect the small echoes that are stealth aircraft.
This can of course be done with GaAs based Radars as well.
Posts: 6,983
By: obligatory - 17th March 2017 at 07:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
70% increase is decent you say ?
what would it take for you to say its a quantum leap then ?
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By: obligatory - 17th March 2017 at 07:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
yes, those are two unlucky customers that ordered the day before GaAs became obsolete,
same story as with F-35.
PAK-FA otoh got the timing right
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By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2017 at 09:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't forget the Rafale, Typhoon, Super Hornet and Strike Eagle/Eagle upgrades either. And also the Su-35, J-10, and J-20. Lots and lots of 'unlucky' customers out there of PESA or AESA radars apparently.
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By: swerve - 17th March 2017 at 10:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Gripen E is currently committed to the Selex/Saab Raven, with its swivelling antenna. That could get a GaN array some time in the future. The new SAAB radar is based on the PS-05/A with a fixed AESA antenna. It's something that SAAB has done a fair bit of work on over the years, but which was rejected in favour of the wider field of view of the Selex offer. The fixed array is simpler, & should be cheaper & lighter & easier to fit to various aircraft.
Selex has done pretty well in the fighter radar retrofit market with the Grifo, but the AESA Vixen has so far not taken off. AFAIK it's only been bought by the USA for border surveillance, in its most basic form. We'll have to wait & see whether SAAB can get into that market. It's got a range of ground & ship-based radars which have recently been re-launched with GaN antennae, & the new versions are reported to be selling. The Erieye AEW radar also has its first customer for its GaN version. It's starting to build up the infrastructure you refer to. But others are also getting in there: Thales is offering GaN ground/ship-based radars.
Posts: 12,109
By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2017 at 10:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Right. And as I said once volume drives out cost and risk the upgrades will become more appealing to potential customers, whether that is cutting in a new antenna on an existing acquisition program or upgrades to older antennas. Following ground based AESA developmental programs is part of my work, so I am fairly up to date on who is doing what but as I said volume is the key to bring cost down so it is going to make some difference in any manufacturers ability to move early or move into a market in a really big way.
That is why I had said that despite Northrop Grumman having the largest share of the future global fighter based AESA market, it is Raytheon's volume in terms of not only the sheer number of GaN AESA's being developed or proposed by it but the number they are building that will put the company in an advantageous position vis a vis their international and domestic competitors when it comes to offering solutions that are lower cost and lower risk.
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By: garryA - 17th March 2017 at 11:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Like 3-4 times different in detection range
doesn't N036 Byelka use GaAs also ?
Posts: 145
By: APRichelieu - 17th March 2017 at 12:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
SAAB announced in June 2016 that they had a prototype of a GaN AESA radar, and that they would be
flying soon.
http://defenceupdate.in/saab-offers-cutting-edge-gan-aesa-radar-technology-india-selects-gripen/
Visited SAAB last autumn and they said that the reason the Selex radar was selected was timing.
The decision on radar was made way before the GaN could be shown.
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By: FBW - 17th March 2017 at 12:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.richardsonrfpd.com/drc/English/Documents/Eric_Higham_GaN_Applications_Blog.pdf
Commercial use of GaN based applications seem to be another piece in the puzzle of driving down costs. According the the above, 2017 will see a large growth in commercial use of GaN based electronics,
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By: FBW - 17th March 2017 at 12:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Where does it say it will be flying soon? The article, and every article I've seen has stated the same thing
They are looking for a partner to invest in developing said radar. They have shown models, but obviously need an application. The latest offering is a sensor package for the Tejas:
https://www.compoundsemiconductor.net/article/101064-saab-offers-gan-based-sensor-for-indian-fighter-aircraft.html
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/digital-battlespace/saab-unveils-fighter-sensor-package-tejas-lca/
(picture)
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By: bring_it_on - 17th March 2017 at 12:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How is that different to what I said?
A bit of correction on your dates - SAAB claims to have begun lab testing of the antenna configuration in 2014. The first I heard of this was in Oct. 2015 when they took a model of the radar antenna to a trade show in Seoul and that was widely reported at the time. To the best of my knowledge no flight test article has yet been delivered for testing. Since Korea did not show interest the marketing has shifted to India which is looking for an AESA for its light fighter. So far I have not seen any commitment from any Gripen-C customer so its future remains uncertain.
SAAB's official position vis-a-vis the radar was (as of Late 2015) -
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By: Yama - 17th March 2017 at 12:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Isn't AESA Vixen pretty much same as Raven ES-05?
If one wants to take full advantage of GaN power, cooling of the array may be too challenging for mechanically steerable array.
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By: Sintra - 17th March 2017 at 13:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not quite, Selex Vixen is a family of Radars, one of them was known in the past has Selex Vixen 1000 Raven, today is called Raven ES-05.
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By: swerve - 17th March 2017 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yep. I think the Raven ES-05 is a Gripen-specific model, but a Vixen 1000, presumably without whatever Swedish tweaks are in the Raven, is on the Selex website now. Selex has shown an antenna configuration for the F-16, but I think that may have been dropped as pointless in view of the US support for its own F-16 AESA radars.
The original, smallest, Vixen model, the 500E, has been sold to the US Customs & Border Protection, replacing old F-16 radars (from F-16As, I think) in border surveillance aircraft (operational for about 5 years now), & to the US Test Pilot School for some of its trainers. It was intended for armed trainers & light fighters.
The USCG has Selex Seaspray 7500E AESA radars in its HC-130s (operational in 2008, I think), but they're mainly for surface search. They're not fighter radars.
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By: obligatory - 17th March 2017 at 20:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
sounds like you are confused, a 70% increase is a quantum leap in capability,
it was revealed in pak-fa thread the production radar is going to be GaN, tho you would better ask
haavarla or TR-1 to point at the article