Su-57 News and Discussion -version_we_lost_count!-

Read the forum code of contact

Profile picture for user SpudmanWP

Member for

12 years 10 months

Posts: 5,197

AIM-120D will still be inferior to a Meteor because of motor burnout.

Keep in mind that the original Meteor spec was "3x the NEZ of the missile it was replacing". That missile was the AIM-120B, not the C or later variants. The Aim-120D has much better all-out range than the B and its NEZ has improved greatly thanks to GPS assisted INS, 2-way datalink, ECCM improvements, seeker improvements, etc.

That being said I have no doubt that the Meteor has a better all-out range than the AIM-120D, but I also think that the 120D has a better pK within its NEZ.

Profile picture for user bring_it_on

Member for

17 years 5 months

Posts: 12,109

The Meteor will most certainly have better kinematic performance compared to the Aim-120D. The AMRAAM roadmap was to use the same propulsion for its longest range weapon, and in fact the US Navy piggybacked on a USAF VFDR motor for the GQM-163..We know that a VFDR motor for an "AMRAAM class missile" was one of the development deliverables and was likely test flown as part of DARPA's T3 program. That said, the USAF is now pursuing multiple A2A weapons, and it will be quite likely that at least one of the proposals/trades will involve a VFDR motor although it comes with trades much like any other propulsion choice.

Member for

10 years 3 months

Posts: 4,731


Be careful, because if you do not write some official source, the curse of Tutankhamen will fall on you.

ok now seriously, I think that who is very interested can open new thread about current missiles airtoair, and on this new thread to write all sources and to talk about it. By my side, this is the thread of the Su-57 and conversation should not go for other way more than necessary

Did you question Brahmos modifications by India? A country that is scientifically backward compared to Russia and has ordered world largest numbers of supersonic missiles. so why interjecting about airtoair missiles in Su-57.


http://www.janes.com/article/81602/larsen-toubro-expands-brahmos-production
Larsen & Toubro expands BrahMos production
Profile picture for user panzerfeist1

Member for

3 years 9 months

Posts: 376

@Rall

"An F-35 with a Meteor (will be implemented soon) will be the most devilish thing that flies.

Really Russia need new big updates or new weapons on this area, it is not a surprise new weapons for Su-57. Airplane is important but not less important will be the weapons. All need to be on vanguard. "

Isnt the K-77M basically like the JNAAMs and isnt the JNAAMs basically a better version than the Meteor because it offers GaN mmics and acts like its own AESA radar?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]261673[/ATTACH]

https://warisboring.com/bad-news-for-u-s-warplane-pilots-russia-s-new-dogfighting-missile-can-t-miss/

"Designers at the Detal bureau, part of the state-owned Tactical Missile Munitions Corporation, added an active electronically-scanned array radar—a so-called “AESA”—to the nose of a long-range R-77 missile to produce the K-77M model. Thanks to its new guidance sensors, the K-77M is way more accurate than other missiles.

How accurate? Flying 40 miles or more, the K-77M should be able “to maintain lock on even the most agile maneuvering target,” according to one scientist and defense specialist in the Pacific region whose country’s laws prohibit him from speaking on the record about weaponry. In light of the scientist’s expertise, War is Boring agreed not to publish his name"

What JNAAMs says

https://thediplomat.com/2017/11/uk-japan-push-ahead-with-joint-air-to-air-missile-project/

"The intention is to combine the active electronically scanned array seeker of the Mitsubishi Electric AAM-4B medium-range air-to-air missile with the Meteor as the AAM-4B is too bulky to fit into the F-35 A’s internal weapons bay."

http://aviationweek.com/awin/japan-upgrading-60-f-2s-aam-4-japg-2

"The crucial claim was that the AAM-4B could switch to autonomous guidance at a 40% greater range than either of the other two missiles and would similarly outperform what was expected to be the 2009 standard of the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder). In a 2010 paper, the ministry attributed the seeker's greater performance to the higher transmitting power available from the AESA. "

Autonomous guidance 40% range so .4 times 120 is 48kms. AAM-4b utilizes GaN MMICS but for some reason the K-77M can create a 40 mile or 64.37km+ lock on to targets by its own. Japans ministry as stated in the above paragraph that the seeker's performance from using the GaNs transmitting power from the AESA helped perform this autonomous guidance function.

If anyone has the count on the amount of T/R modules the AAM-4b has add it here since this is basically being added on the Meteor body hence the creation of JNAAMs.

Just on standby until they confirm GaN UHF jammers are on the SU-57 than declared operational and that the K-77M has been tested than operational. Most of what is said of JNAAMs is following targets. more info on JNAAMs

"Because "AAM-4B" is thicker than "Meetiaa(" (AAM-4B / 20.3 cm versus Meetia / 17.8 cm), the seeker mounted in "Meetia" decreases cross section by 20% and the number of TR units Will be less, but because it is an improved type, the detection performance is said to be equal or better than expected.

so in other words 48km+ self guidance. http://tokyoexpress.info/2018/01/22/日英共同開発のmbda「ミーテイア」ミサイル試射は2022/ Even Japan developing the JNAAMs states the K-77M in the final paragraph. Even a country way ahead in the semiconductor industry views this missile as their rival.

And even the Russians view Japan as their rival http://integral-russia.ru/2017/09/16/dalnobojnaya-raketa-vozdushnogo-boya-jnaam-brosaet-vyzov-peredovym-rossijskim-vozdushnym-istrebitelyam/
"After all, if the Chinese Air Force already has a decent asymmetric response to the future JNAAM Air Defense Forces of Japan in the form of ultra-long-range "air assassins" PL-12D / 15 / 21D, almost ready for mass production, our project RVV-AE-PD(K-77M) all still is "in a long box," which, apparently, no one is supposed to open."

However my support seems to be leaning on Russia's 64 LTCC modules since it has claimed a longer lock on range without guidance than the AAM-4b GaN modules. And JNAAMs claims to be about equal or greater than AAM-4b on lock on ranges without guidance. They wanted the missile to fit on F-35 so they had to remove the modules,but claim equal or better because of modules.

Your making it sound like the Russians have a dire need of developing weapons like the Meteor but the K-77M is more than likely better than the JNAAMs which is suppose to be better than the Meteor. Russians have been testing drel and other cruise missiles on the SU-57 than they were declared operational. K-77M might be tested and operational soon enough.

SU-57 Russian made, K-77m Russian made, F-35 US made, JNAAMs British and Japanese made. Its moments like these where you want to cheer for the underdogs that are basically against the world.

Attachments

Member for

12 years 7 months

Posts: 73

AAM-4B is in service for 8 years. So you can't compare them, when and if R-77M aesa became operational then you can, but Japs will upgrade its seeker so I doubt seeker in next decade will be same as one from 2010. Same for meteor with japan's seeker.

And I really doubt R-77M is primary weapon of Su-57. My bet is on Izd.810 missile which is upgrade od R-37M. It is big enough to carry much more powerful seeker and big warhead, which is very important in stealth era.

Profile picture for user FBW

Member for

9 years 11 months

Posts: 3,106

@Rall

"An F-35 with a Meteor (will be implemented soon) will be the most devilish thing that flies.

Really Russia need new big updates or new weapons on this area, it is not a surprise new weapons for Su-57. Airplane is important but not less important will be the weapons. All need to be on vanguard. "

Isnt the K-77M basically like the JNAAMs and isnt the JNAAMs basically a better version than the Meteor because it offers GaN mmics and acts like its own AESA radar?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]261673[/ATTACH]

https://warisboring.com/bad-news-for-u-s-warplane-pilots-russia-s-new-dogfighting-missile-can-t-miss/

"Designers at the Detal bureau, part of the state-owned Tactical Missile Munitions Corporation, added an active electronically-scanned array radar—a so-called “AESA”—to the nose of a long-range R-77 missile to produce the K-77M model. Thanks to its new guidance sensors, the K-77M is way more accurate than other missiles.

How accurate? Flying 40 miles or more, the K-77M should be able “to maintain lock on even the most agile maneuvering target,” according to one scientist and defense specialist in the Pacific region whose country’s laws prohibit him from speaking on the record about weaponry. In light of the scientist’s expertise, War is Boring agreed not to publish his name"
d.

Hmmm, a defense analyst and scientist from the “Pacific region” who speaks in such absolutes, for a publication as esteemed as “War is Boring”......

I wonder what idea Mr. Kopp is trying to sell now?

Member for

4 years 3 months

Posts: 156


panzerfeist1
, yes, R-77M seems a good update need not only Su-57 but current Su -family fighters.- But you know is not into serial production yet, it is under testing program. It is necesary wait because time before was other update proyects under testing but finally never entered into serial production.

One question, radar of Su-57 is it GaaS or GaN? I think GaaS, but i saw in some places talking about GaN, i think only rumours...

Profile picture for user FBW

Member for

9 years 11 months

Posts: 3,106

[B]
One question, radar of Su-57 is it GaaS or GaN? I think GaaS, but i saw in some places talking about GaN, i think only rumours...

The N036 was stated as GaA, others have speculated that will be changed as the program matures.

As far as I know, there has been no confirmation of what type MMIC the Himalayas IDAS uses.

Russian foundry production is just ramping up. I believe they recently announced that something like 20,000 modules had been produced for the N036, which sounds good, but that’s only enough for a dozen or so radars.

I would take a conservative view on how rapidly GaN MMIC would be introduced, the cost curve has only been coming down in the West in recent years.

Profile picture for user panzerfeist1

Member for

3 years 9 months

Posts: 376

@krivapapa

"Japs will upgrade its seeker so I doubt seeker in next decade will be same as one from 2010. Same for meteor with japan's seeker." Ok it was my fault for stating earlier that the JNAAMs was an attached aam-4b sensor on a meteor body but around the last sentences have suggested that it was equal or greater to and this source was from 6 months ago. The reason they say greater or equal was because they had to remove the modules for a smaller design to fit on the F-35. But of course the modules are better if as Japan said is to offer equal or greater than performance than the aam-4b which had more modules before.

@Rall rumors of GaN but no confirmation of that being true. So GaAS for now until anything has changed or not when the aircrafts become operational in 2019.

@FBW "Hmmm, a defense analyst and scientist from the “Pacific region” who speaks in such absolutes, for a publication as esteemed as “War is Boring”......

I wonder what idea Mr. Kopp is trying to sell now? "

The missile having a 40 mile lock on idea was 1st introduced from a livejournal source until going viral to other articles. AESA sensor missiles are the future and even the Russians have complained that the K-77M was an expensive build........Now I have no idea if the R-37M comes with the same based AESA sensor tech unless someone has an official source that it does.

Profile picture for user FBW

Member for

9 years 11 months

Posts: 3,106

If you want to take a “War is Boring” article quoting Kopp as factual, be my guest. Reality is a bit different and there is no AESA seeker head on any current or projected missile that is able to lock onto a fighter sized target at 40 miles “even on the most agile....targets”.

Profile picture for user RadDisconnect

Member for

8 years 4 months

Posts: 471

As far as i know, serial airframes will looks like T-50-9 (10, 11): https://russianplanes.net/images/to218000/217663.jpg

They still have the metal tubes sticking out by the cockpit. Will production aircraft have stealth version of those or not have them and use pressure sensor instead?

Also, happy to see KGB finally got banned. That was long time coming.

Profile picture for user swerve

Member for

16 years 5 months

Posts: 13,432

panzerfeist1:

"The crucial claim was that the AAM-4B could switch to autonomous guidance at a 40% greater range than either of the other two missiles and would similarly outperform what was expected to be the 2009 standard of the Russian R-77 (AA-12 Adder). In a 2010 paper, the ministry attributed the seeker's greater performance to the higher transmitting power available from the AESA. "

Autonomous guidance 40% range so .4 times 120 is 48kms. AAM-4b utilizes GaN MMICS but for some reason the K-77M can create a 40 mile or 64.37km+ lock on to targets by its own.


I'm afraid you've made a mistake. That isn't 40% of the overall range of the missile, but the range from missile to target, That is, if missile A has a range of 100 km & its seeker can lock on to a target from 20 km away, & the seeker of missile B can lock on at a 40% greater range, then it will lock on from 28 km away, not 140 km.

Ditto with this -

Flying 40 miles or more, the K-77M should be able “to maintain lock on even the most agile maneuvering target,”

It doesn't say that the missile can lock on from 40 miles away. It says two things:
1) the missile can fly 40 miles.
2) the missile can maintain a lock on a target however much the target manoeuvres.

It does not say anything about the range of the K-77M seeker, only about the missile/seeker combination's ability to maintain lock on a target once it has locked on.

If anything else was meant, it should be re-written.

Profile picture for user panzerfeist1

Member for

3 years 9 months

Posts: 376

@FBW

I swear to god there was a live journal source that stated that lock on range 40 miles that was not quoting kopp but I am having a very hard time trying to find that damn source.

I think Russia's primary or best missiles will be this. https://chervonec-001.livejournal.com/2067330.html

"Note:
- AIM-120D AMRAAM - a new American missile, a range of 180 km (120C had a range of 120 km).
- K-77M (Article 180) - medium-range missile for the Su-57, Su-30, Su-35
- K-77ME (Article 180-BD) - medium-range missile with a straight-flow engine for the Su-57. The range is 250 km.

On the tests a few years ago the MiG-31BM with the desired target product at a range of 260-280 km was poured."

Another, a new ultra-long missile "air-to-air" KS-172. Its range is 400 km. The only rocket of this type has two stages. Is able to develop a speed of 1400 m / s. It strikes targets flying at an altitude of 3 m to 30,000 m, at speeds up to 1,100 m / s and maneuvering with an acceleration of 12 g.

There are reports that Russian "air-to-air" missiles of large and medium range are capable of independently detecting and capturing a target during an autonomous flight"

[ATTACH=CONFIG]261684[/ATTACH]

The older variant developed by Agat could maintain a 20km lock on, however the one developed by Istok has a way longer lock on range. 40% of the aam-4b being autonomous engagement which has a 120km flight range gave that autonomous engagement a 48km range. Now i am hearing range of action for the k-77M went from 80 to 110km I do not know what they mean by that but the k-77m has a way longer range than 110km so I am pretty sure they are not referring to its max range but more than likely its autonomous function. Again I am not saying it has a 110km lock on range without the need or support of its own aircraft radar to follow targets. But I am very positively sure that the LTCC modules surpass the AAM-4b GaN modules on the lock on range.

Basically at this rate the competition of best air to air missiles is Russia vs Japan. They are claiming autonomous lock on ranges with even their longer range missiles than their medium range missile K-77M. In my personal opinion the coolest features on the SU-57 will be their missiles when most of them are declared operational and sources come out talking about their lock on ranges than as you said relying on Kopps estimates.

Attachments
Profile picture for user panzerfeist1

Member for

3 years 9 months

Posts: 376

@swerve

Thank you now that I see your post. I got too excited.

Profile picture for user FBW

Member for

9 years 11 months

Posts: 3,106

Panzerfeist- While someday it may be feasable for an AAM with an AESA to lock on at such a distance, it may not be desireable. Currently, missiles like AMRAAM go active in endgame, or terminal guidance at a classified but relatively close distance to the target. This assures the target will be within the radar basket of the seeker head and limit time for countermeasures and evasive action.

A missile that goes active at 40 miles is giving the target ample warning to deploy countermeasures, change aspect, accelerate. Even with the larger NEZ of a ramjet powered AAM, that is nearly a minute warning at a 3,000 mph closure rate.

From what I’ve read, the main reasons they are looking to switch to AESA seeker heads is ECM resistance, less radome induced boresight error, beam stearing being faster and having better detection and tracking than a conventional array on a gimbal.

Member for

3 years 6 months

Posts: 333

While someday it may be feasable for an AAM with an AESA to lock on at such a distance, it may not be desireable.

In many cases it would be. The switch between general area scan and target lock is considerable - involving a change in pulse rate and frequency/frequency shifts. An advanced RWR is likely to detect this. And, if so, then going active earlier is helpful because then jammers and countermeasures will have to foil two sources with a target lock.

I agree that there are cases where it will be detrimental though.

Profile picture for user paralay

Member for

16 years 3 months

Posts: 1,344

Another, a new ultra-long missile "air-to-air" KS-172. Its range is 400 km

There is no such missile and never was
Profile picture for user panzerfeist1

Member for

3 years 9 months

Posts: 376

@paralay

"There is no such missile and never was "

Can you elaborate what you mean by this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_KS-172 There are sources that say this missile exists with said 400km range.

Member for

12 years 7 months

Posts: 73

Can you elaborate what you mean by this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_KS-172 There are sources that say this missile exists with said 400km range.

Old project probable in mock-up stage which offer to India but nothing happen. Also KS-172 was nonsense when R-37 existed even in 1990s. They did fire tests of R-37 in 1990s.

KS-172 is totally irrelevant today.