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The only cost figure we have was from the reports you are refering too here, that's a $70Million per plane.

If that is for the initial 12 airframe, then the cost will fall as more are ordered. Isn't that the nature of things, as we see in F-35 cost analyses, the more that gets produced, the lower cost.

I read last year that 126 uds for indian air force will cost 25.000 million dollars; this information came from an indian news, no from "western propaganda". it is around 200 million dollars each Su-57.

Now 1 year after, India will not buy any Su-57 on the near horizon and maybe never, and russian only will buy 12 units, and price magically will down to 70 million dollars per unit. Really funny.

Reality is that russian officials are pragmatic people and no stupid. They have seen Su-57 is very much expensive than Su-35 and the benefits of one airplane over the other, is not proportional to the substantial increase in cost. So they have choose the obvious, not enter of serial production of the Su-57 at this moment.

They need other partners to lower the cost of research and development that will result in a reduction in the price per unit and continue with the current development of the su-57 until it becomes a mature aircraft. So they need firstly do not talk bad about its airplane, and last declaration of Borisov was a great mistake. I am sure they will not to do these mistakes again.

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A $200mill a pop!!?
Very strange i never heard anything about this. Care to produce a source?

If anything, this was included for the Indian ToT for the Pak-Fa program into FGFA. Typical baaad media figures.

Yeah indeed. We can always take the Total cost of F-35 program and add that cost to the fly away cost of F-35.
Cause you know, that is very correct way of Aircraft cost.

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@RALL

Rafale price for India, and that is from much smaller order, was something close to 250millions (in article were they compare FGFA and Rafale). So that is total deal price. Su-57 will cost lot less Russia as Rafale cost lot less France then what India need to pay. Difference between full export price and domestic fly away price.
BTW 70million for airplane isn't cheap at all at least for Russian AF. They pay much less new Flankers, price is somewhere between 30-40 millions depend on variant they are buying.

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Raddisconnect
Also, looks like wilhem will rip on people criticizing Su-57, but is totally fine with KGB’s rambling.

Every single one of your posts on this thread has included an ad hominem on somebody.
This is worthless and serves to contribute to the certain posters agendas to derail and shutdown this thread.
Madrats post above is yet another example of this, based on a mistranslated and skewed interpretation of a quote by a non-insider.
Show some self restraint.
I couldn't give a figs leaf about the other threads.
Certain posters here, such as Action Jackson, have an awful reputation on other forums...with an overt xenophobic based approach.
Madrat sticks clear of outright stereotypes, but as witnessed above, adds very little.
I have never agreed, nor answered KGB. Stop projecting.
He at least sticks to the topic, even if i may disagree with some of his conclusions.
The same posters i mention many times make multiple posts without even the pretence of mentioning the aeroplane which this topic is about.
I am here for Su-57 analysis, not for personal inadequacies.
Please exercise some self control.
Less of the worthless personal attacks.

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The users I encourage highly the most to be on these SU-57 threads are Jo Asakura, Trident and yes even ActionJackson. Seeing some of their conversations with one another discussing electronics or the physical designs of stealth aircrafts makes me feel like a brainlet(I feel like they are talking a different language even though its english) that they have some engineering degree on aircrafts or are posters that fall above the IQ 150 percentile. Users like this despite some being obnoxious(a common trait for intellectuals) I would still recommend on these threads.

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3 years 11 months

Posts: 156

A $200mill a pop!!��
Very strange i never heard anything about this. Care to produce a source?

If anything, this was included for the Indian ToT for the Pak-Fa program into FGFA. Typical baaad media figures.

Yeah indeed. We can always take the Total cost of F-35 program and add that cost to the fly away cost of F-35.
Cause you know, that is very correct way of Aircraft cost.

Rafale price for India, and that is from much smaller order, was something close to 250millions (in article were they compare FGFA and Rafale). So that is total deal price. Su-57 will cost lot less Russia as Rafale cost lot less France then what India need to pay. Difference between full export price and domestic fly away price.
BTW 70million for airplane isn't cheap at all at least for Russian AF. They pay much less new Flankers, price is somewhere between 30-40 millions depend on variant they are buying.

I'm sorry for the delay. I've been looking at my Pocket application and I really need to put order because it is very difficult to find things sometimes.

It´s two links, from this year and last year. And yes, the development cost is included. But it is logical that the French in the cost of Rafale surely already passed on the corresponding part of the development cost to the units sold to India.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201703101051455656-russian-indian-fifth-gen-fighter-dispute/

Last year, the two countries agreed to commit $4 billion each to R&D, prototype development, testing and infrastructure for the 127 fighters which India expects to cost a total of $25 billion.

The information come from Indian officials.

And here other...

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/defense/2018-02-07/sukhoi-su-57-will-india-join-program

This puts the total cost estimate for the program at over $30 billion, a figure that has not been widely publicized by the IAF.

“A lot of the Indian public looks at the numbers between these two [Rafale and Su-57] and think the Russian option is a bargain,” said one Indian aerospace expert. “They do not realize that the $9 billion pays for all 36 Rafales, but the $6.7 billion we would have to invest in the Su-57 would only pay for four prototypes—with the total program cost more than three times that of the Rafale acquisition.

*********************

A question, sensor 101 KS-U only does it works on UV spectrum? I have read contradictory statements that also works in the infrared spectrum ...

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"A question, sensor 101 KS-U only does it works on UV spectrum? I have read contradictory statements that also works in the infrared spectrum ... "

More than likely yes since some reports have stated both UV and infrared. Also it is possible since the F-22's AN/AAR-56 can do both. I would hate to go off subject on this thread but I would like to know myself why the F-35 went to infrared only on its MAWS instead of also utilizing UV since both have their advantages and disadvantages but using both would be even better?

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https://vz.ru/society/2018/7/6/931118.html

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Su-57 was an expensive and useless toy
Су-57 проявил себя хорошо, но массово закупаться не будет

Mass production of the newest Su-57 fighter "do not force it". This was first mentioned by the new curator of the defense complex, and then by the head of the profile commission of the State Duma. But after all, this very machine of the fifth generation was placed a few years ago with very serious hopes - which, it seems, did not justify the project. What went wrong?

In the era of rapid technology development fighter of the fifth generation of the Su-57 quickly becomes obsolete, so you need to focus on the development of a new, sixth generation aircraft. This was stated by a member of the State Duma's expert council on the aviation industry, the head of the Duma commission for the legal provision of development of defense organizations Vladimir Gutenev. "The Su-57 will not be massively purchased in the interests of VKS. But the plane has a wonderful export potential, many countries would like to buy it, "Gutenev told Interfax .

Let's leave on the conscience of the deputy a statement on "excellent export potential" - foreigners always buy only those planes that the Russian army prefers to use. One assertion of the deputy contradicts the other: if the Su-57 is not massively bought in the interests of the VCS, its cross-border potential can be safely ruined. The most important thing is why the MP confirms that the Russian Air Force, in essence, is giving up the aircraft, on which such hopes were placed and which such huge means are invested in the development of?

Such a sharp judgment can not be considered an opinion of a single deputy, even from a profile commission. Gutenev stressed that he was in agreement with the opinion of the new curator of the defense industry, Deputy Prime Minister Yuri Borisov, who in the recent past was Deputy Defense Minister. To force mass production of Su-57 does not make sense, Borisov said on Monday on the air of the channel "Russia 24" .

The Vice Prime Minister paid tribute to the qualities of this fighter: the Su-57 "proved very good, including in Syria , confirmed its flight performance and combat capabilities." But at the same time, Borisov said: today one of the best aircraft in the world is the representative of the previous generation "4+" - Su-35. Apparently, the Su-35 is quite effective and at the same time not so expensive option.

A similar argument was given by MP Gutenev. VCS already has some of the best Su-35S fighters in the world, he said. According to Gutenev, these machines of the "4+" generation are not only superior to the main American analogues - F-15 and F-16 - in terms of combat qualities. To some extent, the Su-35 is not inferior to the F-35 and F-22 - fifth-generation aircraft, the deputy believes.

Such conclusions contrast with promising plans, which were announced at the beginning of work on the T-50 (such was the factory index of the current Su-57). The development of this fifth-generation fighter within the framework of the PAK FA project (a promising aviation complex for frontline aviation) began in 2001-2002. It was planned that the fifth-generation fighter, at the forefront of military-technical thinking (stealth technology, advanced avionics, powerful radars), should become a counterweight to the F-22 and F-35.

Investments in the project were more than impressive. Nine years after the start of the work, in 2010, President Vladimir Putin stated that only about 30 billion rubles were spent on the first stage of the plane's creation. The same amount, according to the head of state, was required to complete the work.

About this theme
To rejoice in the first contract for the Su-57 early
The transfer of the Su-57 to Syria carries a significant risk
Creation of a new engine for the Su-57 breaks the unkind tradition of the Soviet era
Then, in 2010, the first flight was made. The Defense Ministry planned that at the end of 2016, serial production of new aircraft will begin. Only from 2016 to this year the Air Force had to receive eight T-50s annually. The state program of armaments until 2020 meant the purchase of 52 planes. It was planned to form two regiments.
But, as they say, "something went wrong". After the lapse of 17 years from the beginning of the work, Deputy Prime Minister Borisov stated: the tests of the Su-57 "are going according to plan" (that is, before the release to the series is still far), and in 2018 only two experimental vehicles should be accepted in the VKS. Experimental, but not serial.

Deviation from the set course could be noticed as early as 2015. The same Yuri Borisov, then in the rank of deputy head of the Ministry of Defense, reported: the department of Sergei Shoigu reserves the right to review the number of purchased cars. "Contracted" was only 12 T-50 aircraft. On the other hand, last year the Ministry of Defense ordered a hundred Su-35S and more than 100 Su-30SM.

Experts believe that the reason for the decline in interest in the Su-57 was the "interspecific" competition.

First, according to its characteristics, the Su-35 is slightly inferior to the Su-57. Secondly, on the now existing samples of the new Su-57 are obsolete engines - similar to those used in the operating in the Air Force planes brand "Su". Modernization of this "engine" took 14 years, and only in April the state bench tests were completed. In May, it was reported: "The flying laboratory T-50-2" (prototype Su-57) continues flight tests with the engine of the second stage. But this engine, called "product 30", as expected, should have been in business for a long time.

The specificity that manifests itself in the Soviet era is affected - the newest planes appear earlier than the engines they have developed and tested (and this is understandable, given the complexity of manufacturing this most important element of the aircraft).

Third, the issue of value. The price of one SU-57 unit is about 50 million dollars, or 3.16 billion rubles. For comparison, in 2014, the then commander-in-chief of the Air Force Viktor Bondarev complained about the high cost of Su-30, Su-35 and Su-34 entering the army: "More than 1 billion rubles each plane is worth!" Recall that in the early 1970's excessive cost "Buried" the project of a prospective bomber-missile carrier Su-100. And not his one.

The current interest shown by the military department to the Su-35, is fully justified. "The fighter has established itself as an excellent vehicle with good performance in terms of flight range. It is important that it can be used as a multi-purpose aircraft, as a front-line bomber, even as an escort aircraft with a good range of action - with those "engines" that it stands for. And I think that this is not the last engine, they will continue to be developed in terms of increasing the range of its flight, "- explained the newspaper VZGLYAD former pilot instructor, Air Force Major Andrei Krasnoperov. This aircraft "class 4 ++" lacks one plus to complete invisibility for radars, the expert said.

As for the Su-57, then, as Krasnoperov believes, this

"Let's just say, a more expensive toy."

"The fact that the characteristics of the Su-57 are very similar to the Su-35, especially on the engine - is understandable, but the development of a new engine is underway, and it will appear. This all comes not at once and, naturally, requires expenses ", - the pilot underlines. In the meantime, "in order to leave the defense capability of our country at the necessary level, it is necessary to purchase those aircraft that are and which are reliable - this concerns, first of all, the Su-35," Krasnoperov emphasizes. We add that this raises the question - why was the rate on the Su-35 not made before?

The expert also recalls that "the Americans of the F-series have suffered several disasters and in general they have a lot of failures. That is, the project is damp. " Recall that the fighter F-35, the newest and extremely expensive (Lockheed Martin presented as an achievement reduction in its value from 100 million to 85 million dollars apiece), was severely criticized. In particular, much has been said about his problems with bailouts, which, apparently, have not yet been resolved .

Critics are of the opinion that high-tech, but expensive fifth-generation fighters are domestic, that the American production is a kind of "dead-end branch" of the evolution of combat aircraft. It can not be said that the Ministry of Defense directly confirms this opinion. But let's pay attention to the statement of the deputy Gutenev mentioned in the beginning. Among other things, he stated that it was necessary to start working on a next-generation combat aircraft that would become a transitional link between manned and unmanned aircraft .

And this means that we will not see the mass production of the Su-57, most likely, never.

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"And this means that we will not see the mass production of the Su-57, most likely, never."

Ah man I am confused should I trust the reporter that said no more mass production(like business insider) or should I trust Borisov stating cancelled production for a few years. Most people I am sure cant tell the difference between "cancelled mass production" and "cancelled mass production for a few years"(which ironically sounds like the same time needed to complete their new engines) on whomever I talked to.

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--The plane is virtually on deathrow anyhow. They'll never have more than 21 from recent reports.

Su-57 was squeezed for all the nationalistic propaganda it could muster. The reality is that its premise is proving to be costly and inefficient.

You will see a revival of a more compact stealth design than the Su-57 that is less costly....
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Way too protracted development like Indias domestic airplane means its obsolete even before induction.... on skin ,radar ,engines , structure, price .... everything can be improved...so, why make it. it might be called- the new S-47.

Vladimir Gutenev the man who broke su-57....
http://gutenev-duma.ru/slang2/official_biography

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I am hearing proposed new features like ROFAR and among other things that can be put on the newer SU-57s besides the izdeliye 30 engines. With the current 12 SU-57s with all their current electronics, engines and missile tests will still be rolled out until 2019. Thats what I among other posters here would like to know more about its features such as IRST and radar detection claims, or what the proposed features would be on the newer SU-57s entering production, what is the complete design of its looks when its operational, etc.

I will follow along with what politicians, military officials and representatives of Sukhoi have said than news reporters not knowing the difference between cancelled production and production cancelled for few years.

Welcome back Trident! .... though extremely odd that just as it seems we've finally all been treated to a 1 month holiday from KGB's doltish contributions to the forum, you've suddenly returned. You don't post on a second account to take a break from all intellectual and social accountability from time to time do you? ;)

???

I do take holidays, but KGB has been on my ignore list for months.

But will a blocker prevent IR coming straight back out the front of the intake?

Line of sight blockage is line of sight blockage, right? If anything, it'll work better with a shorter wavelength. Conduction from the engine is a question of duct length and material I imagine. The F-35 ducts are deceptively short due to F135 being so long, so I wouldn't bet on them being longer than the Su-57's (unlike the F-22).

Exactly. It doesn't make sense hanging those radar beacons from a stealth airframe. It's a little more protected from IR missiles only to be so much more exposed to more prevalent radar guided missiles and aircraft. In combat against stealth aircraft, the front IRST is going to be operating pretty much full time, the whole stealthy back surface solution seems utterly pointless. So the OLS ball's surface is either:

- Radar transparent, exposing the metal and glass components inside or;
- Conductive and reflective, exposing the entire sphere to specular reflection directly back to the source radar

Faceted DIRCM enclosures exist (Elettronica, ITT) and I don't see why coating them would be a problem - losses in the IR spectrum are apparently very low, else there would likely be a prohibitive detection range penalty in IRSTs with coated windows.

Guess we'll see how LM handles the F-35's DIRCM solution a few blocks down the track.

Its turrets are supposed to be retractable IIRC (incurring a couple more doors to treat, but nothing unprecedented).

Its so difficult finding a decent picture of this (but I've seen one previously where flash photography was used), but the one below gives an indication. The front facing surface of the frame is canted away from a head on radar. The canted component also seems to be made from a different material to the frame itself (evident when looking at the frame from the outside of the canopy). The canted surface has some flexible, rubber-like material attached to it (arrow points to it in picture) that would only really be practical in that location for radar absorption, reducing solar reflection or both.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]261507[/ATTACH]

The frame is clearly made up of two separate parts, I'm definitely with you on that, but as to the material I would not be able to tell a difference from those images.

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Gutenev is from State Duma and he is lobbying for 6th gen aircraft some how claiming 5th gen are obsolete , These are all rosy talk over vodka , The 6th gen aircraft is not even on drawing board that has been approved by RuAAF much less first engineering prototype being buiilt what Gutenev has about 6th gen features are also too rosy and his claim of it being hypersonic etc are even remotely true that its cost would be 10x time more than PAK-FA.

To sum it up Gutenev is just BS may be his job in Duma demands that , There wont be any 6th gen fighter flying before 2030 and likely not entering production before 2040.

Once RuAF current older flanker fleet retires and eventually they will which forms bulk of the fleet will have to be replace by PAK-FA in next 10-20-25 years there is no other aircraft on design board to replace the flanker , Mig-29 may get replaced by Hunter Class 20 T UCAV and if PAK-DP ever sees the light of the day than it would replace the Mig-31 after 2035 else RuAF will have to develop a variant of PAK-FA for interceptor role.

The requirement to replace Heavy Fighter in RuAF is huge in next 20 years spanning into multiple 100's

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I was talking about an AESA radar you mentioned patents of a jammer which happens to be completely different from the functions of a radar

Either you can't read English or you are deliberately lying and hope no one will notice. The pattern is for multifunctional array, aka array that can operate as radar and receiver and jammer. Most modern AESA radar have secondary EW functions.
The transmit-receive cells are fully functional at broadband and narrow band radio frequencies. In the narrow band of 9.2 to 10.2 GHz, the active antenna system would operate as a radar system. In the broadband range of 2.0 GHz to 20.0 GHz the active antenna system is fully functional in electronic countermeasures and radio frequency jamming

I am just going to try my best to completely ignore anymore engagements responding to you because it is tiresome as I said to hold someone's hand and point out everything on a constant basis

Provide citations isn't holding someone hand, in any debate you are expected to support your argument with evidences, you just hate to do that because you always either exaggerated what you saw or fail to understand it and make ridiculous assumptions.

"The Richag-AV is able to jam advanced sensor systems from distances of several hundred kilometers away." I can find multiple sources of that if you want

So exactly like I said there is no mentioned of "700 km" inside that page like you claimed, you made up that number because you read "several" and misinterpreted it as "seven" , you also didn't know that it is much easier to jam at long distance because radar energy degraded quicker. Worst of all, you don't realize where you are wrong and what make you appear ridiculous to others, keep thinking that it isn't your fault, you are like those "flat earth" or "no moon landing" people.
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Gutenev is from State Duma and he is lobbying for 6th gen aircraft some how claiming 5th gen are obsolete , These are all rosy talk over vodka , The 6th gen aircraft is not even on drawing board that has been approved by RuAAF much less first engineering prototype being buiilt what Gutenev has about 6th gen features are also too rosy and his claim of it being hypersonic etc are even remotely true that its cost would be 10x time more than PAK-FA.

To sum it up Gutenev is just BS may be his job in Duma demands that , There wont be any 6th gen fighter flying before 2030 and likely not entering production before 2040.

Once RuAF current older flanker fleet retires and eventually they will which forms bulk of the fleet will have to be replace by PAK-FA in next 10-20-25 years there is no other aircraft on design board to replace the flanker , Mig-29 may get replaced by Hunter Class 20 T UCAV and if PAK-DP ever sees the light of the day than it would replace the Mig-31 after 2035 else RuAF will have to develop a variant of PAK-FA for interceptor role.

The requirement to replace Heavy Fighter in RuAF is huge in next 20 years spanning into multiple 100's

Exactly. Some Russians are rather telling that American 5G is "a dead branch" of fighter evolution (see rpgtype7 post above), considering to develop Su-57 into 6G, telling that stealth is not very relevant and that Su-35 is essentially enough to counter F-22/F-35 and somehow the same folks posting these news claim all that proves Su-57 is a failure because it is not stealth. Marvellous intellectual pirouettes at display here. So, clear text for them: all those comments mean the following: these sources find the Su-57 too good to be needed in big numbers by now. That does not mean that T-50 is not going to replace T-10 type airframes in the next decades as it was always planned, only they will not rush this happening. Perfectly logical since they will spread the workload, avoiding excessive sizing of involved workforce and guaranteeing long term employment. What is not to like from that?

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Quite right LMFS

Its similar depressing to read about the;
"Singel engine small fighter" airheads on this forum.
I mean the logic of Russia wanting and more importantly need such class of fighter is both funny and sad.

The Syria teather is a perfect place for a large class of jet like Flanker(and Su-34), where you can stay on station for hours and hours. And the reduced Tanker support needed for transit and operations there.

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"A question, sensor 101 KS-U only does it works on UV spectrum? I have read contradictory statements that also works in the infrared spectrum ... "

More than likely yes since some reports have stated both UV and infrared. Also it is possible since the F-22's AN/AAR-56 can do both. I would hate to go off subject on this thread but I would like to know myself why the F-35 went to infrared only on its MAWS instead of also utilizing UV since both have their advantages and disadvantages but using both would be even better?

Ok.

Really Uv sensor works well at low height but poorly at medium and high altitudes, because effect of the ozone. So, its good for advice about coming mampads or surface-air missiles, but not against air-air missiles or airplanes. And IR is much better for medium and hight altitudes.

For this i asked, because if only it works on UV spectrum is a big defect on my opinion.

And there are few information about these sensors.

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Its similar depressing to read about the;
"Singel engine small fighter" airheads on this forum.
I mean the logic of Russia wanting and more importantly need such class of fighter is both funny and sad.

Every other country, big and small, has such a fighter: USA, China, India, Japan, most the main European countries, etc. Why wouldn't Russia not need such a plane?

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Lol, there is that airhead mentality.
Just because Murica has F-16. This automaticly translate to Russia should have them..
It is allowed to use your brain here

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Really Uv sensor works well at low height but poorly at medium and high altitudes, because effect of the ozone. So, its good for advice about coming mampads or surface-air missiles, but not against air-air missiles or airplanes. And IR is much better for medium and hight altitudes

UV can't detect aircraft or coasting missiles and recent BVR missiles with HTPB-AP propellants instead of HTPB-AP-Al will cut down UV detection range by ten-fold, overall, UV sensors have much shorter range and can only detect rocket plumes. With that being said, UV sensors are all weather sensors with lower false alarm rate