I am going to suppose it is better than Su-35S by some margin, Bogdan should know both inside out and not be impressed if there was no clear difference.
Izd. 117 is not thought to be much more powerful than 117S, so weight and/or drag of the Su-57 should be a good step forward compared to Su-35.
This is cool, I don't know if it was known until now: apparently the 101KS-O DIRCM turrets on the Su-57 also have IR surveillance function, similar to the frontal IRST (101KS-V)
It would makes sense that they would form some kind of DAS supplementing the 101KS-U apertures instead of having a very narrow FoV, anybody has any info on that?
This is cool, I don't know if it was known until now: apparently the 101KS-O DIRCM turrets on the Su-57 also have IR surveillance function, similar to the frontal IRST (101KS-V)
It would makes sense that they would form some kind of DAS supplementing the 101KS-U apertures instead of having a very narrow FoV, anybody has any info on that?
Why do you think this? on this attached picture only tell it is a Dircm, do not talk nothing about any Irst funtionality.
By: LMFS
- 10th September 2019 at 01:50Permalink- Edited 10th September 2019 at 01:50
Why do you think this? on this attached picture only tell it is a Dircm, do not talk nothing about any Irst funtionality.
It says function analogous to 101KS-V + DIRCM. But I have to rely on online translators, so this is not 100% sure. It would make sense in any way, to have optical coverage of the plane's surroundings, so it looks like a sound possibility to me.
By: RALL
- 10th September 2019 at 11:03Permalink- Edited 10th September 2019 at 11:39
It says function analogous to 101KS-V + DIRCM. But I have to rely on online translators, so this is not 100% sure. It would make sense in any way, to have optical coverage of the plane's surroundings, so it looks like a sound possibility to me.
For what do you think exist 101KS-U? It does not have any sense to bring 2 different MWS systems with similar range capacities. Track of incoming missiles will be mainly with the 101KS-U. IR sensor of the 101KS-O will have very limited range, surely on the terminal phase of the incoming missiles. It is not a IRST/DAS System with a longer range. If it had long ranges, then 101KS-U would not have reason to exist.
For what do you think exist 101KS-U? It does not have any sense to bring 2 different MWS systems with similar range capacities. Track of incoming missiles will be mainly with the 101KS-U. IR sensor of the 101KS-O will have very limited range, surely on the terminal phase of the incoming missiles. It is not a IRST/DAS System with a longer range. If it had long ranges, then 101KS-U would not have reason to exist.
First of all, we don't exactly know how 101KS Atoll works and what the capabilities of the different subsystems are. UV MAWS is said to produce less false alarms than IR so 101KS-U may be the right approach as an all around missile detection system, but otherwise a IR DAS is more potent for general observation. An all-around IRST is no foolish idea to me and may be combined with the DIRCM turrets with low cost and platform impact, but we have not enough info, just that hint I posted. Another option is that the IR receiver is just there to help directing the the laser turret, I previously thought the missile location would be done by the 101KS-U alone.
By: RALL
- 10th September 2019 at 14:03Permalink- Edited 10th September 2019 at 14:04
First of all, we don't exactly know how 101KS Atoll works and what the capabilities of the different subsystems are. UV MAWS is said to produce less false alarms than IR so 101KS-U may be the right approach as an all around missile detection system, but otherwise a IR DAS is more potent for general observation. An all-around IRST is no foolish idea to me and may be combined with the DIRCM turrets with low cost and platform impact, but we have not enough info, just that hint I posted. Another option is that the IR receiver is just there to help directing the the laser turret, I previously thought the missile location would be done by the 101KS-U alone.
I am totally agree, a IR DAS is the perfect option, no any debate about it. For this if you have a real DAS System, you dont need a MWS based UV as 101KS-U.
This is a commercial info, from company.
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Its very clear 101KS-O has no IRST on same way than 101KS-V is. A DAS System on same way to F-35 has search-track-attack capability, 101KS-O do not have. An the only system which provide information (apart frontal IRST) is the MWS 101KS-U.
I am only passing the info I found. The one you post was already known, the newer one contains some new data that we were not aware of. I understand your point, but I don't have any more answers for what the manufacturer is stating. What do you think they mean?
By: GromOzekA
- 10th September 2019 at 22:24Permalink
Many russian sources even old ones claims than KS-O is IRST capable. LMFS picture says exactly that.
I think, combination of UV and IR is used because UV sensors has wide angle lenses and IR is narrow zoom like lenses for better detection range. So UV are used as reliable way detect launches and initial vectors and IR is for tracking and DIRCM.
By: RALL
- 11th September 2019 at 00:04Permalink- Edited 11th September 2019 at 00:06
[USER="76365"]RALL[/USER]
I am only passing the info I found. The one you post was already known, the newer one contains some new data that we were not aware of. I understand your point, but I don't have any more answers for what the manufacturer is stating. What do you think they mean?
Well, for me is clear when they make description on diferent sensors. They talk about 1 only IRST, called 101KS-V, but not 3 IRST, wich would have imaging infrared.
IMO the 101KS-O sensors are similar than ELBIT Dircm, and works on same way. The only different is that initial detection will come from 101KS-UV sensors.
"All systems in the MUSIC® family employ cutting edge technology including a unique fiber-laser based, directional infra-red countermeasure technology and a sealed turret for maximized reliability. The initial detection of incoming threats is provided by a missile warning system. When a threatening missile is detected, the warning is passed to the DIRCM that then directs a thermal tracker to acquire and track the threat.. A powerful laser beam is then fired accurately at the missile causing it to be deflected away from the aircraft."
a Russian speaker is confirming that the translation is correct. I know how other DIRCM systems work but this description goes beyond that functionality. I suggest that we wait for more information.
By: RALL
- 11th September 2019 at 17:57Permalink- Edited 11th September 2019 at 18:07
[USER="76365"]RALL[/USER]
a Russian speaker is confirming that the translation is correct. I know how other DIRCM systems work but this description goes beyond that functionality. I suggest that we wait for more information.
I am not hurry, only we are talking about it, and this thread is the perfect place)
IMO it´s impossible is any kind of DAS System. You need 5-6 Irst with IIR for covering 360º; on a F-35 a field of regard of 1 eodas is around 90-95º. That is not the case with only 2 DIRCM, but also i dont think these 2 Dircm have any IIR capability. Of course, in future we will know exactly features of these dircm.
The only sensor on Su-57 covering 360º is the MWS KS101-U, for this it needs 5-6 sensors. IMO the Dircm on Su-57 is slaved to the KV101-U.
I am not hurry, only we are talking about it, and this thread is the perfect place)
True!
IMO it´s impossible is any kind of DAS System. You need 5-6 Irst with IIR for covering 360º; on a F-35 a field of regard of 1 eodas is around 90-95º. That is not the case with only 2 DIRCM, but also i dont think these 2 Dircm have any IIR capability. Of course, in future we will know exactly features of these dircm.
The only sensor on Su-57 covering 360º is the MWS KS101-U, for this it needs 5-6 sensors. IMO the Dircm on Su-57 is slaved to the KV101-U.
We outlined the alternative possibility in posts #1866 and #1869. You can have a permanent UV coverage, which obviously is not going to have a huge reach, and (why not?) two additional IRSTs mounted in turrets (ideal location), scanning the airspace long-range (that is actually what IRSTs do) in two hemispheres above and below the aircraft. Not only I see it possible but in fact I think it would be a great idea :eagerness:
By: Krivakapa
- 12th September 2019 at 13:13Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 13:14
IMO it´s impossible is any kind of DAS System. You need 5-6 Irst with IIR for covering 360º; on a F-35 a field of regard of 1 eodas is around 90-95º. That is not the case with only 2 DIRCM, but also i dont think these 2 Dircm have any IIR capability. Of course, in future we will know exactly features of these dircm.
You are comparing apple to oranges, fix sensors with rotating ones. If you look position of F-35 DAS sensors they are cover same as Su-57 101KS-V and 101KS-O combo. http://thumbnail.egloos.net/460x0/ht...785743cb6b.jpg
101KS-V and lower 101KS-O covers same space as nose DAS sensors and 101KS-O also covers space which is covered by two lower DAS sensors. 101KS-O behind cockpit is almost on same position as two DAS sensors located also behind cockpit.
By: RALL
- 12th September 2019 at 15:28Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 15:34
True!
We outlined the alternative possibility in posts #1866 and #1869. You can have a permanent UV coverage, which obviously is not going to have a huge reach, and (why not?) two additional IRSTs mounted in turrets (ideal location), scanning the airspace long-range (that is actually what IRSTs do) in two hemispheres above and below the aircraft. Not only I see it possible but in fact I think it would be a great idea :eagerness:
But it is not a DAS which can cover 360º. You need cover 360 º in real time with minimum delay. Only it is possible with fixed sensors.
You are comparing apple to oranges, fix sensors with rotating ones. If you look position of F-35 DAS sensors they are cover same as Su-57 101KS-V and 101KS-O combo. http://thumbnail.egloos.net/460x0/ht...785743cb6b.jpg
101KS-V and lower 101KS-O covers same space as nose DAS sensors and 101KS-O also covers space which is covered by two lower DAS sensors. 101KS-O behind cockpit is almost on same position as two DAS sensors located also behind cockpit.
No.
What part you do not understand about you need instant scanner of totally 360 º around the airplane. It is impossible with rotating sensors, for this DAS has fixed sensors covering each one around 90º in real time. For this J-20 has similar sensors located than F-35.
By: Krivakapa
- 12th September 2019 at 18:02Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 18:40
No.
What part you do not understand about you need instant scanner of totally 360 º around the airplane. It is impossible with rotating sensors, for this DAS has fixed sensors covering each one around 90º in real time. For this J-20 has similar sensors located than F-35.
The only sensor covering on Su-57 360 º is the MWS KS101-U
You don't need instant scanner for further threats for that KS101-O is more then enough. You need instant scanner only for close threats for example MANPADs, and 101KS-U is there for that.
Btw F-22 which have IR staring MAWS doesn't have IR situation awareness capability. And no one say it is problem, while for you are say rotating IR sensors for IR SA are big problem. Also don't forget OLS-50 sensor isn't some old soviet tech it is QWIP sensor, something similar to AESA in radars. So even though it use rotating dome it scan very fast and can track lot of target, Pirate IRST sensor for example can track up to 200 targets if info on net is right.
I will have to respectfully disagree. Ols-K on mig-35 uses a non fixed , gimballed mirror design like what 101ks-o does, and covers 180 degrees(one ball is placed under the body and covers 180). While the fixed S-OAR sensors (IIR video imaging MAWS system analogous to DAS) cover sixty each.
It is what i was telling. it needs to be fixed sensors to working like a DAS.
The OLS-K on Mig-35 works similar than a targeting pod, in fact, can see a big bump covert it on the botton of the airplane.
But it does not seem the case of the botton dircm of the Su-57, because for this they will use targeting pod. This is not normal on a stealth fighter. If you have a "Eots" on the botton, you dont need targetting pod. IMO al these 2 Dircm on Su-57 only work slaved to principal sensor, the KS101-U.
If you have a rotating IRST, how many time need for scan 180º? it is many time for it, and a missile it is only seconds for impact with airplane from 15-20 kms away. It has not any sense. Need to be fixed sensors for have minimum delay and covering few grades each sensor.
Posts: 333
By: XB-70 - 5th September 2019 at 14:51 Permalink
Looks like the Su-57 is off to Syria again...
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25390/Two_Su_57s_Flown_to_Hmeymim__Syria__as_Russia_Upgrades_Infrastructure_at_Air_Base#.XXESZuR8CUk
Posts: 6,186
By: Austin - 7th September 2019 at 08:03 Permalink - Edited 7th September 2019 at 08:10
“Unimaginable acceleration to supersonic”: test pilot about the characteristics of the Su-57
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/cont...218-Xj7eE.html
Rescue for the fifth generation: the developer of the ejection seat Su-57
https://tvzvezda.ru/news/opk/content...514-56E8F.html
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 7th September 2019 at 12:15 Permalink
I am going to suppose it is better than Su-35S by some margin, Bogdan should know both inside out and not be impressed if there was no clear difference.
Izd. 117 is not thought to be much more powerful than 117S, so weight and/or drag of the Su-57 should be a good step forward compared to Su-35.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 10th September 2019 at 00:10 Permalink
This is cool, I don't know if it was known until now: apparently the 101KS-O DIRCM turrets on the Su-57 also have IR surveillance function, similar to the frontal IRST (101KS-V)
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"ED2iPUoU0AEVZKx.jpg:large.jpg","data-attachmentid":3873000}[/ATTACH]
It would makes sense that they would form some kind of DAS supplementing the 101KS-U apertures instead of having a very narrow FoV, anybody has any info on that?
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 10th September 2019 at 01:39 Permalink
Why do you think this? on this attached picture only tell it is a Dircm, do not talk nothing about any Irst funtionality.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 10th September 2019 at 01:50 Permalink - Edited 10th September 2019 at 01:50
It says function analogous to 101KS-V + DIRCM. But I have to rely on online translators, so this is not 100% sure. It would make sense in any way, to have optical coverage of the plane's surroundings, so it looks like a sound possibility to me.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 10th September 2019 at 11:03 Permalink - Edited 10th September 2019 at 11:39
For what do you think exist 101KS-U? It does not have any sense to bring 2 different MWS systems with similar range capacities. Track of incoming missiles will be mainly with the 101KS-U. IR sensor of the 101KS-O will have very limited range, surely on the terminal phase of the incoming missiles. It is not a IRST/DAS System with a longer range. If it had long ranges, then 101KS-U would not have reason to exist.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 10th September 2019 at 13:40 Permalink
First of all, we don't exactly know how 101KS Atoll works and what the capabilities of the different subsystems are. UV MAWS is said to produce less false alarms than IR so 101KS-U may be the right approach as an all around missile detection system, but otherwise a IR DAS is more potent for general observation. An all-around IRST is no foolish idea to me and may be combined with the DIRCM turrets with low cost and platform impact, but we have not enough info, just that hint I posted. Another option is that the IR receiver is just there to help directing the the laser turret, I previously thought the missile location would be done by the 101KS-U alone.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 10th September 2019 at 14:03 Permalink - Edited 10th September 2019 at 14:04
I am totally agree, a IR DAS is the perfect option, no any debate about it. For this if you have a real DAS System, you dont need a MWS based UV as 101KS-U.
This is a commercial info, from company.
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Its very clear 101KS-O has no IRST on same way than 101KS-V is. A DAS System on same way to F-35 has search-track-attack capability, 101KS-O do not have. An the only system which provide information (apart frontal IRST) is the MWS 101KS-U.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 10th September 2019 at 15:07 Permalink
[USER="76365"]RALL[/USER]
I am only passing the info I found. The one you post was already known, the newer one contains some new data that we were not aware of. I understand your point, but I don't have any more answers for what the manufacturer is stating. What do you think they mean?
Posts: 42
By: GromOzekA - 10th September 2019 at 22:24 Permalink
Many russian sources even old ones claims than KS-O is IRST capable. LMFS picture says exactly that.
I think, combination of UV and IR is used because UV sensors has wide angle lenses and IR is narrow zoom like lenses for better detection range. So UV are used as reliable way detect launches and initial vectors and IR is for tracking and DIRCM.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 11th September 2019 at 00:04 Permalink - Edited 11th September 2019 at 00:06
Well, for me is clear when they make description on diferent sensors. They talk about 1 only IRST, called 101KS-V, but not 3 IRST, wich would have imaging infrared.
IMO the 101KS-O sensors are similar than ELBIT Dircm, and works on same way. The only different is that initial detection will come from 101KS-UV sensors.
https://www.opli.net/opli_magazine/e...it-mini-music/
"All systems in the MUSIC® family employ cutting edge technology including a unique fiber-laser based, directional infra-red countermeasure technology and a sealed turret for maximized reliability. The initial detection of incoming threats is provided by a missile warning system. When a threatening missile is detected, the warning is passed to the DIRCM that then directs a thermal tracker to acquire and track the threat.. A powerful laser beam is then fired accurately at the missile causing it to be deflected away from the aircraft."
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 11th September 2019 at 13:52 Permalink
[USER="76365"]RALL[/USER]
a Russian speaker is confirming that the translation is correct. I know how other DIRCM systems work but this description goes beyond that functionality. I suggest that we wait for more information.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 11th September 2019 at 17:57 Permalink - Edited 11th September 2019 at 18:07
I am not hurry, only we are talking about it, and this thread is the perfect place)
IMO it´s impossible is any kind of DAS System. You need 5-6 Irst with IIR for covering 360º; on a F-35 a field of regard of 1 eodas is around 90-95º. That is not the case with only 2 DIRCM, but also i dont think these 2 Dircm have any IIR capability. Of course, in future we will know exactly features of these dircm.
The only sensor on Su-57 covering 360º is the MWS KS101-U, for this it needs 5-6 sensors. IMO the Dircm on Su-57 is slaved to the KV101-U.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 12th September 2019 at 00:33 Permalink
True!
We outlined the alternative possibility in posts #1866 and #1869. You can have a permanent UV coverage, which obviously is not going to have a huge reach, and (why not?) two additional IRSTs mounted in turrets (ideal location), scanning the airspace long-range (that is actually what IRSTs do) in two hemispheres above and below the aircraft. Not only I see it possible but in fact I think it would be a great idea :eagerness:
Posts: 73
By: Krivakapa - 12th September 2019 at 13:13 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 13:14
You are comparing apple to oranges, fix sensors with rotating ones. If you look position of F-35 DAS sensors they are cover same as Su-57 101KS-V and 101KS-O combo.
http://thumbnail.egloos.net/460x0/ht...785743cb6b.jpg
101KS-V and lower 101KS-O covers same space as nose DAS sensors and 101KS-O also covers space which is covered by two lower DAS sensors. 101KS-O behind cockpit is almost on same position as two DAS sensors located also behind cockpit.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 12th September 2019 at 15:28 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 15:34
But it is not a DAS which can cover 360º. You need cover 360 º in real time with minimum delay. Only it is possible with fixed sensors.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 12th September 2019 at 15:32 Permalink
No.
What part you do not understand about you need instant scanner of totally 360 º around the airplane. It is impossible with rotating sensors, for this DAS has fixed sensors covering each one around 90º in real time. For this J-20 has similar sensors located than F-35.
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"file.php?id=20743&mode=view.gif","data-attachmentid":3873268}[/ATTACH]
The only sensor covering on Su-57 360 º is the MWS KS101-U
Posts: 73
By: Krivakapa - 12th September 2019 at 18:02 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 18:40
You don't need instant scanner for further threats for that KS101-O is more then enough. You need instant scanner only for close threats for example MANPADs, and 101KS-U is there for that.
Btw F-22 which have IR staring MAWS doesn't have IR situation awareness capability. And no one say it is problem, while for you are say rotating IR sensors for IR SA are big problem. Also don't forget OLS-50 sensor isn't some old soviet tech it is QWIP sensor, something similar to AESA in radars. So even though it use rotating dome it scan very fast and can track lot of target, Pirate IRST sensor for example can track up to 200 targets if info on net is right.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 12th September 2019 at 18:51 Permalink
It is what i was telling. it needs to be fixed sensors to working like a DAS.
The OLS-K on Mig-35 works similar than a targeting pod, in fact, can see a big bump covert it on the botton of the airplane.
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"27330E4C5232D87108?download.jpg","data-attachmentid":3873290}[/ATTACH]
But it does not seem the case of the botton dircm of the Su-57, because for this they will use targeting pod. This is not normal on a stealth fighter. If you have a "Eots" on the botton, you dont need targetting pod. IMO al these 2 Dircm on Su-57 only work slaved to principal sensor, the KS101-U.
If you have a rotating IRST, how many time need for scan 180º? it is many time for it, and a missile it is only seconds for impact with airplane from 15-20 kms away. It has not any sense. Need to be fixed sensors for have minimum delay and covering few grades each sensor.