By: Scorpion82
- 12th September 2019 at 19:06Permalink
If you read what was written then you would understand that the 101KS-U detects the missile threat and cues the 101KS-O which then acquires the threat and targets the laser.
By: Krivakapa
- 12th September 2019 at 20:38Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 20:44
If you have a rotating IRST, how many time need for scan 180º? it is many time for it, and a missile it is only seconds for impact with airplane from 15-20 kms away. It has not any sense. Need to be fixed sensors for have minimum delay and covering few grades each sensor.
101KS-O defensive laser of course use data from 101KS-U (which is fix sensor) when missile is close and its engine is working but when missile engine not working how you expect UV sensor to track it? That is why 101KS-O have IR sensor to point laser in right direction or (more likely) to inform pilot so evading measures can be applied.
You time estimate is way off, closing missiles have speed below Mach 3, so they would need more then 15-20sec to hit Su-57. More then enough for detection and evading.
Maybe in future 101KS-O will be just laser system (more powerful laser for example) and 101KS-U will be dual band sensor but for now IR scaning is done by 101KS-V and 101KS-O sensors and if they are QWIP then we surely can talk about IR 360deg coverage for Su-57. Not good as F-35, I agree but still better then any other fighter in world.
You don't need instant scanner for further threats for that KS101-O is more then enough. You need instant scanner only for close threats for example MANPADs, and 101KS-U is there for that.
Btw F-22 which have IR staring MAWS doesn't have IR situation awareness capability. And no one say it is problem, while for you are say rotating IR sensors for IR SA are big problem. Also don't forget OLS-50 sensor isn't some old soviet tech it is QWIP sensor, something similar to AESA in radars. So even though it use rotating dome it scan very fast and can track lot of target, Pirate IRST sensor for example can track up to 200 targets if info on net is right.
Don´t need instant scanner if its not a DAS system, of course. If you look conversation from beggining, all started because LMFS think it can be similar to a DAS System. And i think oposite, because DAS need have fixed sensors.
MAWS of the F-22 is the father of the F-35´s DAS. So i dont know why you think it has not IR situation awareness capability.
By: RALL
- 12th September 2019 at 21:14Permalink- Edited 12th September 2019 at 21:16
What my google lens android translation from Russian language:
SUBSYSTEM Optoelectronic
. System features similar to 101KC-V + blinding attacking missiles. Modules are located behind the cockpit and below.
The key word is "SIMILAR". And "similar" does not mean "same". For this it is not a IRST on same way than OLS-50. And they do not tell what features some similars....
QWIP has nothing to do with field of view for a IR sensor. It is simply a method of generating a brightness scale for a pixel. A pixel in the sensor has a certain number of receptive electrons embedded within energy wells - the more photons that interact with it, the larger fraction of electrons are energized out of the energy wells and into the conduction band, the larger your current pulse, the higher brightness value for the pixel. Simple concept.
As for the field of view that the Su-57 has in the infrared band, we don't know. But it most certainly does have some capability for imaging in infrared besides the IRST. The DIRCMs are, after all, a type of dazzler. So, their aim has to be very precise - they have to highlight the seeker, not just any point on the missile. And, just like with a laser sight on a rifle where you know your aim is good because you see the dot reflection from the laser, the Su-57's protective systems has to see the highlighting provided by the laser beam. And you cannot see the reflection from an infrared beam with a UV sensor.
Now how much capability it has is just guestimates at this time.
By: Krivakapa
- 14th September 2019 at 14:46Permalink- Edited 14th September 2019 at 14:50
What my google lens android translation from Russian language:
The key word is "SIMILAR". And "similar" does not mean "same". For this it is not a IRST on same way than OLS-50. And they do not tell what features some similars....
Of course is a very ambiguous information.
What is similar? IR sensor. What is different? Laser. Is that so hard to conclude?
And if you think it doesn't have IR sensor, fine, then explain us why they marketing all around IR scanning as part of Su-57 sensor package? With what it would do if 101KS package don't have couple IR sensors around plane?
What I agree with you it isn't same as DAS but it still provide 360deg IR picture, not instant though. But because we are talking about QWIP sensors, they are analog to AESA radars, scaning time is lot faster with them then with older gen Russian sensors.
By: RALL
- 14th September 2019 at 16:43Permalink- Edited 14th September 2019 at 16:53
What is similar? IR sensor. What is different? Laser. Is that so hard to conclude?
And if you think it doesn't have IR sensor, fine, then explain us why they marketing all around IR scanning as part of Su-57 sensor package? With what it would do if 101KS package don't have couple IR sensors around plane?
What I agree with you it isn't same as DAS but it still provide 360deg IR picture, not instant though. But because we are talking about QWIP sensors, they are analog to AESA radars, scaning time is lot faster with them then with older gen Russian sensors.
I did not tell this. I think you need read again my posts.;) Do you have some link where they told Su-57 has all around IR scanning? Also, can you tell me how much time need an IR sensor for scanning 360º?
What i guess, and i told before, these two IR sensors inside DIRCM on top and on botton of the Su-57 are slaved to the 101KS-U. This ultraviolet package sensor tell to this IR sensor on DIRCM where they need look. What give 360 coberture to the Su-57 is the 101KS-U-
But it is only my opinion. I can be wrong or you.:eagerness:
New
Posts: 376
By: panzerfeist1
- 18th September 2019 at 19:27Permalink
"Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter jet will soon be equipped with new communications suit that includes data exchange, navigation and identification (OSNOD) with enhanced encryption protection and anti-jamming features.
"The new version was designed specifically for the Su-57. It is now undergoing state trials as part of its systems,”Alexei Ratner, the head of the Polet science and technical center of the Russian Electronics holding, was quoted as saying by TASS.
The new system also protects encrypted data constantly, even if communication is intercepted, Ratner said"
If the S-111 is like the link 16 in small data exchange using HF, I wonder if OSNOD is like the MADL used on the F-35 using gigahertz for high data transfer between aircrafts?
By: meme expert
- 20th September 2019 at 03:07Permalink- Edited 20th September 2019 at 03:12
Interesting.
An article i saw a long time ago translated from russian said that S-111 worked in the X-band , had a range of 1500 km and could form beams in selected directions , (thus being like MADL).
Link -16 is analogous to S-108 , at least in beam pattern (omnidirectional).
Interesting.
An article i saw a long time ago translated from russian said that S-111 worked in the X-band , had a range of 1500 km and could form beams in selected directions , (thus being like MADL).
Link -16 is analogous to S-108 , at least in beam pattern (omnidirectional).
By: djcross
- 21st September 2019 at 17:34Permalink- Edited 21st September 2019 at 17:36
1500 km is a figure which is not realistic for a stealthy, airborne system. That long range requires significant radiated power to maintain data link integrity (remember the R^2 rule). The transmitted radiated power means the airplane is no longer stealthy.
New
Posts: 376
By: panzerfeist1
- 22nd September 2019 at 00:31Permalink
[USER="1724"]djcross[/USER]
S111 uses the same Hf frequencies as the link 16 with small data exchange.
interesting cut :”According to the developers, the S-111 is in no way inferior to modern foreign analogues, and in a number of parameters it surpasses them. For the first time, this complex has solved the problem of transferring large amounts of information between planes within a group in real time (voice, video, radar and tracking camera data) by using the SMV radio channels that transmit information at speeds up to 34.3 Mbit / s.”
although keep in mind that this is S-111 while a brochure calls it S-111-N for Su-57.
source 2 : http://bastion-karpenko.ru/communications-suite-s-112/
has a lot of info , including the maximum range of 1500 kilometers and the use of Centimeter band (X band). And high data package exchange , in digital format .plus integration with other platforms and noise free exchange.
Can’t find the one that speaks about it being directional , since it was deep down a rabbit hole , ill mention it once i find it
True, there is no confirmation in those links that the system is directional, but they speak about synergistic effects and high levels of integration with the rest of the avionics and radioelectric systems of the plane. We know the radar and ECM work together, given the communications also work in X band the nose and cheeks radars could (IMHO) potentially be used for creating directional beams with 300º coverage
By: meme expert
- 27th September 2019 at 20:38Permalink
[USER="76593"]meme expert[/USER]
Many thanks.
True, there is no confirmation in those links that the system is directional, but they speak about synergistic effects and high levels of integration with the rest of the avionics and radioelectric systems of the plane. We know the radar and ECM work together, given the communications also work in X band the nose and cheeks radars could (IMHO) potentially be used for creating directional beams with 300º coverage
All good mate!
regarding integration , i am interested in the effect of real time data exchange on the usage of L-band radars. Obviously they are not mere IFF arrays, they function as a radar thus being part of the byelka complex , there are modern techniques to overcome the resolution issue of the L-band radars but there is no official info regarding the exact accuracy , with that being said , i am wondering if a flight of Su-57’s , lets say 4 of them , thus 8 L band arrays , could perform some sort of a composite track to enhance resolution , in combination with signal processing methods i see *potential* (i say potential to not pass my personal opinion as confirmed fact) to effectively use the L-band radars to either track VLO targets at reasonable ranges or to at least designate portions of the airspace where the X-band radar can focus its search in that small sector, like nebo-m.
By: LMFS
- 28th September 2019 at 02:33Permalink- Edited 28th September 2019 at 02:50
All good mate!
regarding integration , i am interested in the effect of real time data exchange on the usage of L-band radars. Obviously they are not mere IFF arrays, they function as a radar thus being part of the byelka complex , there are modern techniques to overcome the resolution issue of the L-band radars but there is no official info regarding the exact accuracy , with that being said , i am wondering if a flight of Su-57’s , lets say 4 of them , thus 8 L band arrays , could perform some sort of a composite track to enhance resolution , in combination with signal processing methods i see *potential* (i say potential to not pass my personal opinion as confirmed fact) to effectively use the L-band radars to either track VLO targets at reasonable ranges or to at least designate portions of the airspace where the X-band radar can focus its search in that small sector, like nebo-m.
This isn't a silly idea at all, in fact modern Chinese VHF radars do exactly that to improve their precision locating targets. Since the L band arrays in the Su-57 have only one row of transmitters, this would provide a vertical location capacity that would be absent otherwise. What I don't know is how much more effective the L band is compared to X band to detect VLO targets, especially considering that the L-band arrays are way smaller than the X band one in the nose. Maybe small targets like AAMs could be detected better since their physical features have a size in the region of decimeters as the wavelength.
Thinking further about the directional communication links, I am inclined to believe they should be available, more even after seeing today the Su-57 paired with the VLO Okhotnik. It would not make sense to create such a stealthy pairing and then ruin it all via omnidirectional communications. X-band radar arrays should be the selected emitters and the tail cone should include one transmitting unit, too. This is more logical/economical than having additional transmitters operating in other frequencies I think.
Posts: 4,461
By: Scorpion82 - 12th September 2019 at 19:06 Permalink
If you read what was written then you would understand that the 101KS-U detects the missile threat and cues the 101KS-O which then acquires the threat and targets the laser.
Posts: 73
By: Krivakapa - 12th September 2019 at 20:38 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 20:44
101KS-O defensive laser of course use data from 101KS-U (which is fix sensor) when missile is close and its engine is working but when missile engine not working how you expect UV sensor to track it? That is why 101KS-O have IR sensor to point laser in right direction or (more likely) to inform pilot so evading measures can be applied.
You time estimate is way off, closing missiles have speed below Mach 3, so they would need more then 15-20sec to hit Su-57. More then enough for detection and evading.
Maybe in future 101KS-O will be just laser system (more powerful laser for example) and 101KS-U will be dual band sensor but for now IR scaning is done by 101KS-V and 101KS-O sensors and if they are QWIP then we surely can talk about IR 360deg coverage for Su-57. Not good as F-35, I agree but still better then any other fighter in world.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 12th September 2019 at 21:00 Permalink
Don´t need instant scanner if its not a DAS system, of course. If you look conversation from beggining, all started because LMFS think it can be similar to a DAS System. And i think oposite, because DAS need have fixed sensors.
MAWS of the F-22 is the father of the F-35´s DAS. So i dont know why you think it has not IR situation awareness capability.
https://web.archive.org/web/20170203190802/https://www.lockheedmartin.com/content/dam/lockheed/data/mfc/pc/missile-launch-detector-mld/mfc-mld-pc.pdf
"Lockheed Martin’s AN/AAR-56 Missile Launch Detector (MLD) is a mature, affordable, defensive system capable of providing long-range detection and declaration of both airborne and surface-launched threats."
The MWS and ALR-94 is what give to the F-22 the 360º situation awareness capability.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 12th September 2019 at 21:14 Permalink - Edited 12th September 2019 at 21:16
What my google lens android translation from Russian language:
The key word is "SIMILAR". And "similar" does not mean "same". For this it is not a IRST on same way than OLS-50. And they do not tell what features some similars....
Of course is a very ambiguous information.
Posts: 14
By: meme expert - 12th September 2019 at 21:28 Permalink
Similar can either mean same or around the same. Its up interpretation yes. No way to actually confirm any interpretarion.
Posts: 333
By: XB-70 - 13th September 2019 at 01:55 Permalink
QWIP has nothing to do with field of view for a IR sensor. It is simply a method of generating a brightness scale for a pixel. A pixel in the sensor has a certain number of receptive electrons embedded within energy wells - the more photons that interact with it, the larger fraction of electrons are energized out of the energy wells and into the conduction band, the larger your current pulse, the higher brightness value for the pixel. Simple concept.
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"QWIP_conduction_band_profile.png","data-attachmentid":3873344}[/ATTACH]
As for the field of view that the Su-57 has in the infrared band, we don't know. But it most certainly does have some capability for imaging in infrared besides the IRST. The DIRCMs are, after all, a type of dazzler. So, their aim has to be very precise - they have to highlight the seeker, not just any point on the missile. And, just like with a laser sight on a rifle where you know your aim is good because you see the dot reflection from the laser, the Su-57's protective systems has to see the highlighting provided by the laser beam. And you cannot see the reflection from an infrared beam with a UV sensor.
Now how much capability it has is just guestimates at this time.
Posts: 73
By: Krivakapa - 14th September 2019 at 14:46 Permalink - Edited 14th September 2019 at 14:50
What is similar? IR sensor. What is different? Laser. Is that so hard to conclude?
And if you think it doesn't have IR sensor, fine, then explain us why they marketing all around IR scanning as part of Su-57 sensor package? With what it would do if 101KS package don't have couple IR sensors around plane?
What I agree with you it isn't same as DAS but it still provide 360deg IR picture, not instant though. But because we are talking about QWIP sensors, they are analog to AESA radars, scaning time is lot faster with them then with older gen Russian sensors.
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 14th September 2019 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 14th September 2019 at 16:53
I did not tell this. I think you need read again my posts.;) Do you have some link where they told Su-57 has all around IR scanning? Also, can you tell me how much time need an IR sensor for scanning 360º?
What i guess, and i told before, these two IR sensors inside DIRCM on top and on botton of the Su-57 are slaved to the 101KS-U. This ultraviolet package sensor tell to this IR sensor on DIRCM where they need look. What give 360 coberture to the Su-57 is the 101KS-U-
But it is only my opinion. I can be wrong or you.:eagerness:
Posts: 376
By: panzerfeist1 - 18th September 2019 at 19:27 Permalink
New system for the SU-57 to lighten up this dead board. https://www.defenseworld.net/news/25489/New_Communications_Suite_for_Russian_Su_57_Stealth_Jet#.XYJ1sndFzIU
"Russia’s Su-57 stealth fighter jet will soon be equipped with new communications suit that includes data exchange, navigation and identification (OSNOD) with enhanced encryption protection and anti-jamming features.
"The new version was designed specifically for the Su-57. It is now undergoing state trials as part of its systems,”Alexei Ratner, the head of the Polet science and technical center of the Russian Electronics holding, was quoted as saying by TASS.
The new system also protects encrypted data constantly, even if communication is intercepted, Ratner said"
If the S-111 is like the link 16 in small data exchange using HF, I wonder if OSNOD is like the MADL used on the F-35 using gigahertz for high data transfer between aircrafts?
Posts: 14
By: meme expert - 20th September 2019 at 03:07 Permalink - Edited 20th September 2019 at 03:12
Interesting.
An article i saw a long time ago translated from russian said that S-111 worked in the X-band , had a range of 1500 km and could form beams in selected directions , (thus being like MADL).
Link -16 is analogous to S-108 , at least in beam pattern (omnidirectional).
From paralay : http://www.electron.spb.ru/Products/matrix.htm
It seems this company makes multiband sensors that are UV/IR at the same time.
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 21st September 2019 at 10:24 Permalink
Good information, do you have any link confirming that capacity for the S-111?
Posts: 5,396
By: djcross - 21st September 2019 at 17:34 Permalink - Edited 21st September 2019 at 17:36
1500 km is a figure which is not realistic for a stealthy, airborne system. That long range requires significant radiated power to maintain data link integrity (remember the R^2 rule). The transmitted radiated power means the airplane is no longer stealthy.
Posts: 376
By: panzerfeist1 - 22nd September 2019 at 00:31 Permalink
[USER="1724"]djcross[/USER]
S111 uses the same Hf frequencies as the link 16 with small data exchange.
Posts: 14
By: meme expert - 22nd September 2019 at 21:47 Permalink
Yeah sure.
source 1 : https://vpk.name/news/116510_opk_sozdala_novyie_radioelektronnyie_sistemyi_dlya_istrebitelya_5_pokoleniya.html
interesting cut :”According to the developers, the S-111 is in no way inferior to modern foreign analogues, and in a number of parameters it surpasses them. For the first time, this complex has solved the problem of transferring large amounts of information between planes within a group in real time (voice, video, radar and tracking camera data) by using the SMV radio channels that transmit information at speeds up to 34.3 Mbit / s.”
although keep in mind that this is S-111 while a brochure calls it S-111-N for Su-57.
source 2 : http://bastion-karpenko.ru/communications-suite-s-112/
has a lot of info , including the maximum range of 1500 kilometers and the use of Centimeter band (X band). And high data package exchange , in digital format .plus integration with other platforms and noise free exchange.
Can’t find the one that speaks about it being directional , since it was deep down a rabbit hole , ill mention it once i find it
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 22nd September 2019 at 23:27 Permalink
[USER="76593"]meme expert[/USER]
Many thanks.
True, there is no confirmation in those links that the system is directional, but they speak about synergistic effects and high levels of integration with the rest of the avionics and radioelectric systems of the plane. We know the radar and ECM work together, given the communications also work in X band the nose and cheeks radars could (IMHO) potentially be used for creating directional beams with 300º coverage
Posts: 14
By: meme expert - 27th September 2019 at 20:38 Permalink
All good mate!
regarding integration , i am interested in the effect of real time data exchange on the usage of L-band radars. Obviously they are not mere IFF arrays, they function as a radar thus being part of the byelka complex , there are modern techniques to overcome the resolution issue of the L-band radars but there is no official info regarding the exact accuracy , with that being said , i am wondering if a flight of Su-57’s , lets say 4 of them , thus 8 L band arrays , could perform some sort of a composite track to enhance resolution , in combination with signal processing methods i see *potential* (i say potential to not pass my personal opinion as confirmed fact) to effectively use the L-band radars to either track VLO targets at reasonable ranges or to at least designate portions of the airspace where the X-band radar can focus its search in that small sector, like nebo-m.
Posts: 374
By: a89 - 27th September 2019 at 23:20 Permalink
According to TASS the OSNOD link will also also be installed in upgraded Su-30SM.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/6930489
Posts: 484
By: LMFS - 28th September 2019 at 02:33 Permalink - Edited 28th September 2019 at 02:50
This isn't a silly idea at all, in fact modern Chinese VHF radars do exactly that to improve their precision locating targets. Since the L band arrays in the Su-57 have only one row of transmitters, this would provide a vertical location capacity that would be absent otherwise. What I don't know is how much more effective the L band is compared to X band to detect VLO targets, especially considering that the L-band arrays are way smaller than the X band one in the nose. Maybe small targets like AAMs could be detected better since their physical features have a size in the region of decimeters as the wavelength.
Thinking further about the directional communication links, I am inclined to believe they should be available, more even after seeing today the Su-57 paired with the VLO Okhotnik. It would not make sense to create such a stealthy pairing and then ruin it all via omnidirectional communications. X-band radar arrays should be the selected emitters and the tail cone should include one transmitting unit, too. This is more logical/economical than having additional transmitters operating in other frequencies I think.
Posts: 1,482
By: JangBoGo - 28th September 2019 at 16:41 Permalink
without foundation and makeup
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[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","data-attachmentid":3874755}[/ATTACH]
Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 28th September 2019 at 16:45 Permalink
Wrong thread. That's a USAF F-22...:rolleyes: