Franco-German next generation fighter

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12 years 2 months

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It was "unwrapped" this morning, and its a beauty. Glad that Dassault keeps on producing beautiful designs. ​​​

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Beauty has nothing to do with it when led start flying around... The M2K is beautiful and functional as a weapon. The Rafale is elegant and has its fair share of in-design limitations. Let's hope that amateurish unhelpful narratives as above stay at bay - at least the time this thing is fully conceived. Then that they paint it in blue, pink or tactical black ...who cares: Stormy shadow will be... "invisible"! ;) EDIT (cross-posting from SP): What is the gull-winged mockup on the left? And a suggestion to why such large wing: collapsible vertical tails. Also notice that it seems to have asymmetrical wing design what suggest two different versions: the pointy for AdlA (left wing) and the larger one for the Marine (with collapsible verticals?) At last it seems that this thing is in the expo to display something http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/Smileys/default/cheesy.gif [ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"MDBA NGF7-rem.jpg","data-attachmentid":3838817}[/ATTACH]
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12 years 2 months

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The "thing" that you´ve circled in red its a mock up of the "old" FCAS drone, the wings are not asymmetrical, the photo was taken with a very wide angle, that produces a heavy bit of image distortion. I cant see one single hint for "collapside verticals".

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"Beauty has nothing to do with it when led start flying around" Not the advice of Bill Lear neither of Marcel Dassault. At least it doese not look like an obese pigeon! (or an Atlantic puffin)

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8 years 8 months

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So sleek, so nice ! And a design more modern than f22 and f35.
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Will end up being another unaffordable airplane.
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It looks pretty small and thus somewhat affordable. Compared to the size of the UAV (both 1:10 scale) it looks Rafale sized. Might allow to power it with modified versions of existing engines. Combined with porting avionics, a reasonable cost and time frame seem possible. I wonder though what the payload will be. At least a single 1000 kg bomb, cruise missile or ASMP missile along some AAMs would be the minimum requirement I guess. For that of course a layout with central weapons bay is well suited.

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It's small means then that you'll probably need to buy the UCAS that goes with it.... And probably the AWAC too because that little nose is scary ;) Let's hope that Dassault plans for a demonstrator as a real first step.

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To better understand one should refer to the high level conference posted on the first page. Here are some important design feature/philosophy of used revealed : 1) France still see the need of a fast and manœuvrable aircraft for its next gen fighter. Hence the sleek design unlike F35 or Tempest. 2) Its mass should be compatible with operations from the CdG deck (between rafale and SH mass). 3) It is meant to be used as a system of system and (when the mission requires) will fly in combination with stealth UCAV that will act as deported sensor/jamming and carry additional weapons. It will work as a real time network to penetrate most sophisticated air defenses. Given the need for speed and manœuvrability and its limited mass (max SH mass), it will probably have a relatively limited internal payload and need UCAV to complement when necessary. In the conference they are pretty clear that every qualities cannot be found in a single platform : if you want speed, maneuvrability, range and big internal bays you will end up with a huge aircraft (like the J20) that would be unaffordable. Choices have to be made and France still wants a fast, maneuvrable and relatively light next gen fighter.
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And let's add that both this and the Tempest are actually just mock-ups, nothing to do with real planes at all, so let's take this as they are, very initial proposal to planes that could and with all probability will end up being something very different from their look. It is not that those mock up means that these project are anything closer to completion or even more real than american ones and even less to the PAK-DP, just because we have a plastic model.

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I can't say for sure for the Tempest, but for the SCAF above, the mock-up and the Catia CGI are representative of the general layout of what will be the real aircraft/demonstrator. And its consistent with their vision explained above. General architecture will remain the same, it is not just a random attempt. Work has already gone into it.

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So this is good but I hope Dassault will integrate the down fall in price in airframe design to re-scale their projected cost Vs weight. The next fighters will be bigger... at an equivalent acquisition and lower ownership cost. This is the rule that prevail today. Let's hope that Dassault will not singular themselves again for the future. And last but not least, the F-35 is immensely more maneuverable than the Rafale (50% more max AoA for example - that includes full rudder authority at that angle) while marginally slower on paper and undoubtedly faster on a mission . So if they can't get their equations right today....

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All is in relative term, SCAF will most probably be heavier than the Rafale and Typhoon but will remain light enough to be affordable. The sleek design contrasts with more “boxy” 5th gen aircraft like the F35. And you are mistaken with AoA…You should know that it is often brought forward as a marketing pitch to hide not so good maneuverability and kinetics, just to avoid talking of the rest. F35 bleeds its energy so fast after a hard maneuver with its high wing loading that it has no other choice to use high AoA tactics while it is falling like a brick. It is not worthless but you should get the full picture before making an assessment. 4th gen jets are more “energy fighters” an can keep energy high for a much longer period of time. F35 demos are a testament of that: an agressive maneuver followed by quite some dead time to recover energy. In the same period, your typical 4th gen jet will pack 3 maneuvers where the F35 only did one.

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'
  1. And last but not least, the F-35 is immensely more maneuverable than the Rafale (50% more max AoA for example - that includes full rudder authority at that angle) while marginally slower on paper and undoubtedly faster on a mission . So if they can't get their equations right today.... [HR][/HR]
    1. Like0
  2. 'Thank you. You made my day. Have you seen both fly? A pachyderm walking on rear feet will reach 50° AoA i guess, with full tail authority...

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Funny... I guess that's how your read "immensely". in case you haven't seen it: https://youtu.be/93NdwZAeXhI

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1) France still see the need of a fast and manœuvrable aircraft for its next gen fighter. Hence the sleek design unlike F35 or Tempest.
sleek design is faster/higher top speed with more range not necessary manurvable. but France hasn't shown anything yet that it can implement sleek design combined with manuvrability aka advance FBW with TVC. so it is more than likely it will fail. and this thing may even starved money from upgrading current generation fighters like EF/Rafale. Even Belgium understand it.

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Bit of an odd surprise to go along with their choice of the F-35. The Belgian gov will invest over 360 million Euros in the project.
Of the 647 million euros left by the government to purchase the F-35, 369 million goes to the development of fighter aircraft of the next generation. That says the spokesperson of Prime Minister Charles Michel (MR) The government decided Thursday 34 F-35s to buy, accounting for about 4 billion euros. This leaves them 647 million euros under what they first had set. Part of the money that she is saving now goes to a French-German program for the development of a new European fighter plane
https://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/belgie-algemeen/369-miljoen-voor-gevechtsvliegtuig-volgende-generatie/10063051

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4 years 1 month

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^ is it me or does it seem that Dassault's NGF has a better likelihood of being developed than the Bae Tempest? It seems Dassault has greater ability to attract partners and funding. BAe not so much, especially with Brexit... unless they can get a major win with getting Japan on board.

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4 years 1 month

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^ is it me or does it seem that Dassault's NGF has a better likelihood of being developed than the Bae Tempest? It seems Dassault has greater ability to attract partners and funding. BAe not so much, especially with Brexit... unless they can get a major win with getting Japan on board.

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8 years 8 months

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NGF is already a cooperation between France and Germany - there is a political agreement at the highest level. Spain is very likely to follow. Not sure for Belgium but if true it tells that they view the NGF as a generation ahead. Tempest is a bet for UK to keep ints industry post-Brexit. It is too early to say if it is going to be successful or not. Japan, Sweeden or a ME country could help this program. But at this stage it is less secures than NGF.