Franco-German next generation fighter

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Lesson learned...Whatever the FCAS operational system becomes, I hope the requirements are well defined and the partnership/teaming concept prevents one (or more) participants from disrupting the development and build cycle (e.g. Eurofighter).

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Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space: Source: Reuters.com
There are a big problem. The TEMPO. UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years. So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.

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By parts, the oldest Hornets at Gando will almost certainly be replaced in 2025 by a follow up batch of Typhoons. The AV-8B's of the Armada are slated for a replacement in 2034, that's the F-35B or nothing at all, mind you, very recently the "nothing at all" was a very distinct possibility, that decision will be taken a decade from now. The rest of the Hornets will be replaced in the thirties by whatever comes out of this new program. That's more or less what can be gleamed from the Spanish journos. If any of our Spanish friends here have more up to date news, much obliged. Cheers
2035? its many years.... 2025-2027 it is dates more reasonable for to replace harriers. https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-vida-operativa-harrier-armada-llegara-2027-201709150313_noticia.html In 2020 USA tells good bye to its Harrier fleet, and Spain depend of Usa for get spares for its fleet. So, it will be a problem from 2020 and forward. I dont think Spain will can to operate harriers more beyond from 2025. Spain needs get decition on F-35B maybe next year, and do not wait more, because need 3-4 years for get first units.

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i love those bold assessments. Everything depends on context,mission types, doctrina etc.
5th generation fighters are a very big step forward comparing with legacy fighters, as big step as Me-262 was comparing it with piston fighters. I see it like this. Of course, i talk about real 5 th generation, a real VLO, not LO like SH, or EF.
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There are a big problem. The TEMPO. UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years. So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
F-35B doesn't totally cover the UK's needs for the next 30 years.

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[quote] Dirke Hoke, head of Airbus Defence and Space:

“I consider it extremely dangerous to develop a system like FCAS (the Franco-German fighter programme) without the British,” he said, noting that potential order quantities would rise if Britain participated, making future aircraft more competitive. [/quote] No orders will not rise with more countries entering into the project. infact it will give reason to Germany to dial back its own orders and concentrate on the intermediate components and use Germanic efficiency to bankrupt other EU suppliers to the project. now in past UK managed to export Tornadoes and EF that help the project in long term sustainability. but this not likely to get repeated. infact it will be in Germany interest to keep export controls to control France or anyother country not getting any money from anywhere else so not challenge its EU dominance. Germany has that side business of wealth creation that will multiply in coming decades. https://www.spglobal.com/platts/en/market-insights/latest-news/natural-gas/020119-novateks-arctic-lng-2-project-advances-with-siemens-equipment-supply-deal
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2035? its many years.... 2025-2027 it is dates more reasonable for to replace harriers. https://www.abc.es/espana/abci-vida-...3_noticia.html In 2020 USA tells good bye to its Harrier fleet, and Spain depend of Usa for get spares for its fleet. So, it will be a problem from 2020 and forward. I dont think Spain will can to operate harriers more beyond from 2025. Spain needs get decition on F-35B maybe next year, and do not wait more, because need 3-4 years for get first units.
Honestly, dont remember where i´ve seen 2034, might have mixed it with 2024, that was the old out of date for the Armada Harriers, but this fairly is recent, it points to 2030: https://abcblogs.abc.es/tierra-mar-a...2A9FEF9D2.jpeg And Spain does not have a replacement program for the Harrier, there´s no program going. There´s one for part of the Hornet fleet, almost certainly another batch of Typhoon´s, another for the C101 replacement, and the SCAF, there´s nothing else.
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There are a big problem. The TEMPO. UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years. So i dont see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
A) The UK at the moment does not intend to acquire the F-35A B) The one who happens to have asked for a next generation replacement (AKA "Tempest") for their Typhoon T1 fleet was Gavin Williamson

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A) The UK at the moment does not intend to acquire the F-35A B) The one who happens to have asked for a next generation replacement (AKA "Tempest") for their Typhoon T1 fleet was Gavin Williamson
Ok, but it continue being F-35, version B. And they can buy in some moment more F-35...A or more B. *************** Officially Spain have joined program. [ATTACH=JSON]{"alt":"Click image for larger version Name:\tOpera-Instant-nea-2019-02-14-191026-twitter-com.png Views:\t0 Size:\t322.4 KB ID:\t3851147","data-align":"none","data-attachmentid":"3851147","data-size":"full","title":"Opera-Instant-nea-2019-02-14-191026-twitter-com.png"}[/ATTACH]
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There are a big problem. The TEMPO. UK and Italy have F-35 A. France, Germany and possibly Spain no. So, those countries need next fighter generation being developed fastly, UK or Italy does not need, they have their needs totally covered for next 30 years. So i don't see easy both proyects will join together on next future.
RALL rest assured that no one in my own country's airforce would even think at the F-35 as a substitute for Typhoon (that we are actually still acquiring) or as an alternative to new gen A2A fighter. The Lighting II are here to take the place of Tornado and Ghibli i.e. to drop bombs and cruise missiles, no place for multirole (or better said Jack of all trades) fighters in AMI. France got Rafales so their actual needs are covered, it's mainly Germany that have a problem of line obsolescence but because it lacks a substitute for Tornado and not for Typhoon.

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5th generation fighters are a very big step forward comparing with legacy fighters, as big step as Me-262 was comparing it with piston fighters. I see it like this. Of course, i talk about real 5 th generation, a real VLO, not LO like SH, or EF.
And i take it for what it is : assessment without any argumentation.

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And i take it for what it is : assessment without any argumentation.
Erick Hartmann the most famous combat ace in history downed 352 enemies airplanes, He said that most of the time the enemy never knew of his presence until it was too late. He survived to the war. This axiom today takes even more strength with 5th generation fighters. You can not shoot down an airplane that your sensors do not see or it is later when you can see it. So, a very low observable airplane take a very big advantage above all legacy fighters. It is simple.

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Erick Hartmann the most famous combat ace in history downed 352 enemies airplanes, He said that most of the time the enemy never knew of his presence until it was too late. He survived to the war. This axiom today takes even more strength with 5th generation fighters. You can not shoot down an airplane that your sensors do not see or it is later when you can see it. So, a very low observable airplane take a very big advantage above all legacy fighters. It is simple.
Yep. Studies after Vietnam showed the same thing.

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[USER="76365"]RALL[/USER] - He has the most victories, yes. But the most famous is probably Richthofen. Even people who don't know who that is have generally heard of the Red Baron. But the point you make is fine. Sensors, stealth and communications have become the big three.
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Most of the recent victories in BVR combat are due to complete unawareness of the enemy till the last moment, due to the attacking planes remaining passive/outside the search cone of the enemie's radars and being guided by AWACS. Now, how would a lonely fighter, VLO or not, manage to attack a modern adversary from far BVR without being noticed (by turning on its radar or providing mid-course guidance to its missiles) is a mystery to me. Any modern fighter would be aware by the moment of launch (bay opening) the latest that he is under attack, which would allow him to counter it and reduce drastically its effectiveness. Otherwise you have, as is usually the case, a third world adversary without RWR, or even functioning radars or any kind of ESM/ECM suit being flanked by modern fighters guided by the AWACS deployed to the theater in undisputed air superiority. So I feel much of the tactical superiority which is attributed to VLO is in reality a consequence of AWACS and utter numbers / technological air dominance in general. Sorry for the off-topic but I think the discussion is worth it...

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Spot on LFMS. VLO is not the magic thing anymore like in the 90's/2000's. It is still valuable but it is just one element in the survivability mix. Multispectrum sensors, datafusion and datalinks of multiple platforms considerably erods the advantage of stealth. Still useful but no silver bullet. + modern ECM would give a hard time to an incoming EM missile forcing to close to the threat.

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Why assume VLO airplanes operate alone? F-22 certainly does not and it has been known for years that F-35 was designed to fight as a 4-ship. ESM is the primary sensor and is capable of generating a weapons quality targeting solution. You can guess the detectable last chance IFF ping before the missile shot is not going to come from the shooter, but from a flight mate in a safe location and completely different bearing. Look right while getting sucker punched from the left. Don't underestimate the ECCM of the missile, its ability to switch to HOJ and missile end game support from any of the flight members. That is why the latest AAMs have 2-way data links. Every move has well thought through counter moves. Don't be that medieval knight who enters the battle expecting his shiny ECM armor to protect him from the long bow and musketoon. The best way to survive is to remain unseen until it is too late for an unwary opponent to react (a la Richtofen and Hartman).

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That's one of the problems of F-35 its been designed like an i-F-35, in order to operate in a very closes ecosystem.

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Unfortunately that was the requirement of the JSF RFP in 2000. USAF learned much since that time and has demanded short and long term solutions such as Talon Hate and Einstein Box which will eventually be introduced if the bean counters allow it.

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E
Now, how would a lonely fighter, VLO or not, manage to attack a modern adversary from far BVR without being noticed (by turning on its radar or providing mid-course guidance to its missiles) is a mystery to me. Any modern fighter would be aware by the moment of launch (bay opening) the latest that he is under attack, which would allow him to counter it and reduce drastically its.
Why do you think it is a mystery? As long as your force have more than 1 VLO fighter, in combat they can guide one another through datalink like AEW&C guide conventional aircraft, only one aircraft need to have its radar on. VLO fighter won't suddently look like B-52 once they open their bay so it is not a given that a modern fighter can be aware that they are under attack at that point. In your scenario, if neither side have more than 1 fighter, the advantage is still in VLO fighter favor.Because, unlike with radar , it is very hard and time consumming for a single platform to generate firing solution with only RWR/ESM, if your adversary is constantly moving at high speed, in unpredictable direction in 3D space, then it is even harder, almost impractical.