How can frequency hopping be slower when it is acting while DRFM is reacting?.
It's not. DRFM is a technique for digitally creating and/or processing a modulated, pulsed waveform. Frequency hopping (and also sometimes phase shift keying) are the modulation techniques used. Different things.
By: halloweene
- 18th February 2019 at 13:04Permalink
How can frequency hopping be slower when it is acting while DRFM is reacting?.
Because you must receive the radar return before switching frequency. ( i have toadmit it is measured in msec.) andswitching frequency is not an instant process.
France and Germany wanted to avoid the definition issues that happened during A400 or Eurofighter program. If italy want to join after definition phase, they would surely be welcome.
By: eagle1
- 18th February 2019 at 13:44Permalink- Edited 18th February 2019 at 13:45
France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.
Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.
Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.
I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.
Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.
UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !
By: moon_light
- 18th February 2019 at 15:05Permalink
Because you must receive the radar return before switching frequency. ( i have toadmit it is measured in msec.) andswitching frequency is not an instant process.
With all due respect, that is not accurate, for example a compressed pulse consist of many sub pulses at different frequencies = radar can change frequency before it receive the returns.
France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.
Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.
Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.
I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.
Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.
UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !
Imho the title is a bit misleading. It's basically a French programme with backing from the current German government. The specs are French, the largest part of the workshare will be French. Maybe it will succeed if the French taxpayer is willing to shoulder the lion's share of the development costs.
But that's not the only issue. The other obstacle are export policies. France is more or less willing to sell to everyone able to pay while every large political party in Germany prefers a holier-than-thou approach to arms exports.
"Contributing" to Gripen NG would have been a better idea considering fiscal realities and military ambitions over here in Germany.
That sound like Rafale and Eurofighter all over again
Not really. Rafale was France, Eurofighter UK, Germany, Italy & Spain. So far, the split on the new proposals looks like the UK, Italy & Sweden with Tempest, & France, Germany & Spain with the rival. Completely different split.
With all due respect, that is not accurate, for example a compressed pulse consist of many sub pulses at different frequencies = radar can change frequency before it receive the returns.
point is you do not have to cancle the whole signal, just mess it up enough to be non significant.
New
Posts: 91
By: ThincanKiller
- 4th March 2019 at 09:25Permalink- Edited 4th March 2019 at 09:42
Without calling Germans an alibi, we still have Dassault essentially isolated from the market... (if that doesn't sound as an anachronism to you...)
Well no, it certainly doesn't, and what isolates Dassault from other manufacturers in western Europe is their level of expertise, the bit you can't invent by printing P.R cards before an airshow because everyone knows their bit before getting there.
Germany or any other potential partner would be welcome for sure, but it is more about financial weight than anything else, even so work would be shared, not only Dassault is well capable of doing it entirely on their own given the budget, but France as a whole is the only country which has consistently designed and developed her own indigenous fighters since BAe produced Harrier II, you're talking airframe, engines, systems.
The Sweedes relies on the US for their engines technology, Germany haven't designed on her own a single front line fighter since WWII, where do you get the full capabilities and expertise from in Western Europe then?
More to the point, it is Airbus which is involved, be it the German side of it, they don't have the know-how when it comes to fighter design but the financial weight, so Dassault are not isolated, they come up as leaders, once again.
France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.
Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.
Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.
I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.
Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.
UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !
We agree on most points except for a few details:
France leaderships in the field is based on experience and know-how but also it is a politico-industrial strategic policy, from BAe PoV, it is very much the same, they need to retain their leadership in a joint project so as to maintain their design capabilities, this sort of thing you can't pull of a hat, so i can't see a joint venture France/UK except if the politician get involved, at industrial levels it doesn't make sense and isn't even healthy, they need competition.
I don't see it as being "Fance/Germany,UK" thing, it's more about manufacturers and financial resources, you have the big players like Airbus, BAe, Dassault, SAAB, and the other little guys, but who is involved and who can do what is more important than from where.
Italy is in no position to claim a bigger role, they simply don't have the level of expertise for that.
Not a bad out come! What??? So, Spain should maintain a fleet of obsolete fighters for another 20+ years. Until the NGF is available!
Also, the Spanish Navy is very influential. So, I wouldn't rule out getting at least a modest number of F-35B's for the Juan Carlos.
Spain has huge budget constraints, and lets face it, we simply don't use this capabilities, neither do have the political will, or the economic and logistic capability to operate these LHD+F35B in any likely scenario where F35s might be required. The navy certainly has expresed its will for the acquisition of the F35s but there are several aspects that in my opinion make this purchase a bad business:
- Budgets
- Lack of active foreign military policies
- Lack of budget to support even a small carrier group overseas (that is, not so close to our coast that the SpAF couldn't actually do the job)
- Lack of logistics to support that carrier group.
- Lack of industrial benefits of such a purchase (for anyone familiar with spanish un employment rates and the quality of the employment in the country that is a clear factor)
- Need to allocate budget to many other areas not only in the armed forces but in the armada itself
We had the Principe de Asturias an their harriers roughtly 30 years docked in Rota and that's probably what we will get out of the JCI + F35B.
I sincerely believe that for similar investment an evolved and additional batch of S80 submarines to consolidate our currently pitifull submarine capabilities would provide a much better service for the Navy while helping to consolidate Navantia's submarine building capabilities.
Posts: 1,765
By: Marcellogo - 18th February 2019 at 08:10 Permalink
Not just Italy, Sweden is in the Tempest bandwagon also.
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By: moon_light - 18th February 2019 at 08:49 Permalink
That sound like Rafale and Eurofighter all over again
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By: XB-70 - 18th February 2019 at 13:03 Permalink
It's not. DRFM is a technique for digitally creating and/or processing a modulated, pulsed waveform. Frequency hopping (and also sometimes phase shift keying) are the modulation techniques used. Different things.
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 18th February 2019 at 13:04 Permalink
Because you must receive the radar return before switching frequency. ( i have toadmit it is measured in msec.) andswitching frequency is not an instant process.
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 18th February 2019 at 13:07 Permalink
France and Germany wanted to avoid the definition issues that happened during A400 or Eurofighter program. If italy want to join after definition phase, they would surely be welcome.
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By: eagle1 - 18th February 2019 at 13:44 Permalink - Edited 18th February 2019 at 13:45
France made the right move taking the lead of the program...At least for its own interest.
Including Italy or/and the UK in the program would give each country a very small indutrial share...At least too small for France who like the UK wants to maintain the full spectrum of know-how to build a high end fighter jet.
Germany could be the right partner if the political will does not errode over time. Financially in good shape and not willing to take the lead.
I think that when France says that others (UK/Italy/Sweeden) are free to join provided the Franco/German leadership remains unchanged they know that the UK and to a lesser extent Italy would never accept this condition. They surely want to play a bigger role.
Sure they must be quite angry at the situation as France & Germany moved quickly to be in the stonger position.
UK/Italy for Tempest seems a good ticket for them to maintain a good industrial basis...Impossible with the Franco German program. So instead of having 3 different program in Europe we would have only 2...Already a progress !
Posts: 999
By: moon_light - 18th February 2019 at 15:05 Permalink
With all due respect, that is not accurate, for example a compressed pulse consist of many sub pulses at different frequencies = radar can change frequency before it receive the returns.
Posts: 91
By: jamesm - 1st March 2019 at 16:53 Permalink
Re-opened after cleanup.
Posts: 1,050
By: Aurel - 1st March 2019 at 19:51 Permalink
Imho the title is a bit misleading. It's basically a French programme with backing from the current German government. The specs are French, the largest part of the workshare will be French. Maybe it will succeed if the French taxpayer is willing to shoulder the lion's share of the development costs.
But that's not the only issue. The other obstacle are export policies. France is more or less willing to sell to everyone able to pay while every large political party in Germany prefers a holier-than-thou approach to arms exports.
"Contributing" to Gripen NG would have been a better idea considering fiscal realities and military ambitions over here in Germany.
Posts: 4,731
By: JSR - 2nd March 2019 at 09:20 Permalink
6G fighter is so expensive that I will not be surpized Germany abandoned it midway. like around 2025.
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By: swerve - 2nd March 2019 at 18:10 Permalink
Not really. Rafale was France, Eurofighter UK, Germany, Italy & Spain. So far, the split on the new proposals looks like the UK, Italy & Sweden with Tempest, & France, Germany & Spain with the rival. Completely different split.
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By: TomcatViP - 2nd March 2019 at 20:17 Permalink
Without calling Germans an alibi, we still have Dassault essentially isolated from the market... (if that doesn't sound as an anachronism to you...)
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By: halloweene - 3rd March 2019 at 11:09 Permalink
What is your problem with Dassault (they will deliver 26 Rafale next year btw).?
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By: halloweene - 3rd March 2019 at 11:11 Permalink
point is you do not have to cancle the whole signal, just mess it up enough to be non significant.
Posts: 91
By: ThincanKiller - 4th March 2019 at 09:25 Permalink - Edited 4th March 2019 at 09:42
Well no, it certainly doesn't, and what isolates Dassault from other manufacturers in western Europe is their level of expertise, the bit you can't invent by printing P.R cards before an airshow because everyone knows their bit before getting there.
Germany or any other potential partner would be welcome for sure, but it is more about financial weight than anything else, even so work would be shared, not only Dassault is well capable of doing it entirely on their own given the budget, but France as a whole is the only country which has consistently designed and developed her own indigenous fighters since BAe produced Harrier II, you're talking airframe, engines, systems.
The Sweedes relies on the US for their engines technology, Germany haven't designed on her own a single front line fighter since WWII, where do you get the full capabilities and expertise from in Western Europe then?
More to the point, it is Airbus which is involved, be it the German side of it, they don't have the know-how when it comes to fighter design but the financial weight, so Dassault are not isolated, they come up as leaders, once again.
We agree on most points except for a few details:
France leaderships in the field is based on experience and know-how but also it is a politico-industrial strategic policy, from BAe PoV, it is very much the same, they need to retain their leadership in a joint project so as to maintain their design capabilities, this sort of thing you can't pull of a hat, so i can't see a joint venture France/UK except if the politician get involved, at industrial levels it doesn't make sense and isn't even healthy, they need competition.
I don't see it as being "Fance/Germany,UK" thing, it's more about manufacturers and financial resources, you have the big players like Airbus, BAe, Dassault, SAAB, and the other little guys, but who is involved and who can do what is more important than from where.
Italy is in no position to claim a bigger role, they simply don't have the level of expertise for that.
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 4th March 2019 at 13:34 Permalink - Edited 4th March 2019 at 13:44
As the song says, "Don't worry be happy":
Posts: 91
By: ThincanKiller - 4th March 2019 at 13:40 Permalink
I know another one which was saying for years that Rafale couldn't supercruise or pull 11.0g, very popular in some Anglo-American forums...
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By: TomcatViP - 4th March 2019 at 13:44 Permalink
And you think that is me?
Posts: 91
By: ThincanKiller - 4th March 2019 at 13:47 Permalink
I don't know you so no i won't assume, but we all know how those songs goes...
Posts: 72
By: bandua - 6th March 2019 at 21:09 Permalink
Spain has huge budget constraints, and lets face it, we simply don't use this capabilities, neither do have the political will, or the economic and logistic capability to operate these LHD+F35B in any likely scenario where F35s might be required. The navy certainly has expresed its will for the acquisition of the F35s but there are several aspects that in my opinion make this purchase a bad business:
- Budgets
- Lack of active foreign military policies
- Lack of budget to support even a small carrier group overseas (that is, not so close to our coast that the SpAF couldn't actually do the job)
- Lack of logistics to support that carrier group.
- Lack of industrial benefits of such a purchase (for anyone familiar with spanish un employment rates and the quality of the employment in the country that is a clear factor)
- Need to allocate budget to many other areas not only in the armed forces but in the armada itself
We had the Principe de Asturias an their harriers roughtly 30 years docked in Rota and that's probably what we will get out of the JCI + F35B.
I sincerely believe that for similar investment an evolved and additional batch of S80 submarines to consolidate our currently pitifull submarine capabilities would provide a much better service for the Navy while helping to consolidate Navantia's submarine building capabilities.
It would be nice to have them but it's simply absurd in our situation and I hope that this will be acknowledged when taking the decission. However the chief of the dirección general de armamento y material (basically the person in charge of managing military acquisitions) might have a different view since it comes from the navy and has no problems in possing with a F35B reproduction in spanish colors over his desk (https://www.infodefensa.com/es/2019/03/04/noticia-almte-gonzalez-digam-avion-entrenador-buque-subacuatico-interrogadores-ahora-prioridades.html).