Flying the F-104

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Zipper

335 Mira's Tiger:

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Frank how funny did you actually consider that comment to be?

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A-g

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CF-104

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Originally posted by PhantomII
Frank how funny did you actually consider that comment to be?

As funny as the risk to see one in my backyard... The F-104G were, in Gemany and Belgium at least, widowmakers. And they did not only hit wodden areas....

They weren't much better in the Netherlands. If you aren't aware of that, many of them crashed. If you wish, i can dig you the data.

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Frank I'm quite aware the F-104 had a less than enviable safety record in German service, my point is that many people were killed as a result and you making light of the situation is something I thought (or rather you would likely claim) you were/are above.

It was simply a pointless comment.

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Originally posted by atc pal
Was it an air defence squadron that "boomed" the dogshead train?
And the ground attacker 104's being rather p*ssed about that?

Yes, it was a 322sqn F-104 which boomed that train, 322 was one of the two (primarily) air-air Starfighter units the KLu had. The other one was 323, both at Leeuwarden. Then there were two attack-mostly squadrons (311 and 312), and one recce squadron (306) all at Volkel.

The choice for a Leeuwarden Staf to scream over the train made perfect sense though, since the train was only some 50 km away from Leeuwarden and well over 200km away from Volkel. There were no hard feelings about that, besides i believe that 306sqn did fly some recce missions in the area earlier on during the siege of the train.

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Arthur, some time back, also posted some very good attrition figures on this bird - by country.

What kind of camera gear did the recce version have. Anyone?

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It was the Orpheus pod, at least for the Dutch planes, IIRC. Those were used later on the F-16, until a better pod got developped.

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Think the problem of NATO '104 losses has been put down to aircrew rather than machine. Young, inexperienced pilots used to F84s,F86s and Hunters suddenly had their hands on a Mach 2 hot rod and were asked to fight on the deck all the way to 60k' in europes crowded and frequently cloudy skies. A million miles from the role it had been intended for- intercepting soviet bombers in the crystal clear skies of ConUS, flown by Korean veteran crews who also had some supersonic jet (F100/101/102) experience. Incidentally, the Spanish flew them for 10 years in the fighter role without loss.

Zipper may be fast but its not a lightning !! Read tales of impromptu races between the '104 and the lightning during squadron exchanges. Star had the initial acceleration but lightning soon took over, especially in the vertical. A T5 even beat an F15 to 20k!! awesome!!

Dedicated RF104 also had a camera bay just behind the cockpit

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Actually, all RF-104Gs were built with the camera bay just behind the cockpit, in place where the gun and ammo used to be with the non-recce 104s. In this bay there were usually three KS-67A cameras. Later, the Dutch removed the internal camera pack, and equipped their RF-104Gs with the Orpheus recce pod with a modular layout, more camera stations and better all-weather capabilities. Some of the Orpheus pods were sold to Italy which used them on the F-104G as well, and nowadays should still have some for their AMXes.

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Thanks all

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Originally posted by Distiller
Mymy, a long story. Perhaps Google can help, I don't want to type that in detail here. But basically the German Ministry for Death and Destruction, or more precise the Secretary of Defense, Mr. Franz-Josef Strauss himself, decided to buy the F-104G in late 1958. Competitors were the F11F-1, the F-100J and the F-5A. Only the Tiger was actually flying, but inferior to the F-104, the other two existed only on paper, the F-100J never to materialize. After the German decision the rest of Euro-NATO followed. How Japan decided I don't know, propably because it was a - and still is - a hotrod.

Actually, it was an export version of the F11F-1F that was offered. Prototypes flew but no sales were ever made.

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Originally posted by mavaustin
This F-104A Starfighter on display at PAF Musem Karcahi was gifted to PAF by Turkish government.
http://www.pakdef.info/pakmilitary/airforce/warbirds/images/f104a_862_02.jpg

It's a CF-104D, not an F-104A. It flew initially as 12862 and later as 104862 with the CAF in Germany, and went to Turkey in 1986. CF-104s are easy to spot because of the RWR under the nose and on the sides of the jetpipe.

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The great Erich Hartmann was dead against the introduction of the '104 into German service at the time it was proposed, saying it was too much of a leap from the F86.

History proved him right and them wrong.....:rolleyes:

Just loved the old Kriegsmarine 'Vikings' 2 ship display team, remember one nudging the sound barrier at RIAT in 1985...:D

Great aeroplane the '104.....

But the Lightning was better......;) :D

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Re "Great aeroplane the '104.....

But the Lightning was better......

Absolutely firebird!! but not at mud moving!

Thought Kriegsmarine was a purely WW2 term?, Marineflieger being more appropriate. There was talk that they went thru' the barrier during practice at IAT '85 -dont recall a boom though they certainly were motoring!

Canadian 4 and 5 ships were also very memorable and the Dutch always flew a great solo.

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Originally posted by kodak
Re "Great aeroplane the '104.....

But the Lightning was better......

Absolutely firebird!! but not at mud moving!

Thought Kriegsmarine was a purely WW2 term?, Marineflieger being more appropriate. There was talk that they went thru' the barrier during practice at IAT '85 -dont recall a boom though they certainly were motoring!

Canadian 4 and 5 ships were also very memorable and the Dutch always flew a great solo.

Kreigsmarine........of course it should have been Marineflieger.....DOH:D :D

Must have been the mention of Hartmann putting me in WW2 mode....:rolleyes:

Mudmoving.......not something 'real fighter pilots' do, so not a term a Lightning pilot would be familiar with.....
Unless reffering to the fact that RAFG Lightning F.2/F.2A's spent most of their time 'shooting down' mudmoving F104's...;)

(Although the RSAF did use their F.53's in the 'mudmoving' role on occasion.)

Yes, indeed one of the Vikings did 'nudge' the sound barrier on the Saturday of RIAT '85.
I caught it on video, as well as my voice exclaiming, "What the ****....!!" :D :D