By: mack8
- 2nd February 2010 at 19:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen guys talking on a german forum back and forth about the same subject , and the shocking conclusion was that a Mig-23MLA is what the Bulgarians,Lybians and Syrians had! ( Mig-23MLD export?) there is only one pic i managed to find of such a machine in russian markings, identified as you all know by the different RWR antennas on the tail and the extra dielectric panel near the wing LERX root, for the same RWR system( SPO-15LE)
However, i think( i might be wrong offcourse) that this particular machine is the prototype for the ...lets call it Export MLD for now( with aditional RWR fairings on LERX, but no MLD aerodinamic modifications), since it has the number 19 red. Too much to be just a coincidence...
Me personally i'm still not fully sure of what the heck is a MLA yet... ( oh and that book is wrong , i have it too , GDR didnt got their MLs in 1985...its sooner -gotta check again )
By: martinez
- 2nd February 2010 at 23:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Me personally i'm still not fully sure of what the heck is a MLA yet... ( oh and that book is wrong , i have it too , GDR didnt got their MLs in 1985...its sooner -gotta check again )
Hmmm, I have not seen so much ignorance a quite long time. Actually,how much validated evidence do you need to see?? :eek:
1.Authors of Russian publication say it clear, bcs they discussed the MLA issue with the MAPO MIG, various ARZ and VVS representatives, so you hardly will find anywhere a more credible answer.
2. After checking they agreed that the Mig-23MLA denotes code izd. 23-12A.
3.I confirm their statements by showing an export Mig-23ML logbook, look above what it is saying. Izd.23-12A . It means that both Czechoslovakia and GDR received Izd.23-12A, surprisingly from almost the same production batch as the Bulgarian ones, but both airforces accustomed the name Mig-23ML except Bulgarian AF.
4.Some Bulgarian aviation outsiders who cant adequately verify their claims started this mystery saying their MLA are somehow different to the rest to Warsaw Pact Mig-23ML.
5.Please stop this nonsense about the Mig-23ML red 19 scraped at Monino museum as this was one a baseline Mig-23ML used to teach flying Russia`s foreign customers and third world allies. I have been in Monino to investigate this aircraft.
By: mack8
- 3rd February 2010 at 00:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ignorance??? i dont wanna argue with anyone like one can see in other threads about RCS and all that ...
I merely expressed my opinion based on what i've read in a zillion places ( which makes it thats much difficult to sort out the bloody truth!) and i admitted i might be wrong offcourse...
Actually the whole point of my post was to actually find some answers about this damn MLA , and not to be insulted... what the point of this kind of forum if not spreading information ?
I admit i dont know everything about Mig-23s and so on ...but i'm pretty sure neither do you.
The book is wrong . Germans got their MLs sooner , Gordon is right this time.
I'm surprised it didnt jumped in your eyes the non-standard LERX antennas and the different tail RWR configuration of 19 red at Monino, wish i'd be able to travel there. That not a baseline ML config...but again ,i might be wrong.
By: martinez
- 3rd February 2010 at 06:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The book is wrong . Germans got their MLs sooner , Gordon is right this time.
Geez, what are you smoking, is this thread discussing MLA/ML in principle or when Germans got their aircrafts???:eek::eek: :mad: Yes, the Russian book is wrong, but it is irrelevant.
By: martinez
- 3rd February 2010 at 09:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm surprised it didnt jumped in your eyes the non-standard LERX antennas and the different tail RWR configuration of 19 red at Monino, wish i'd be able to travel there. That not a baseline ML config...but again ,i might be wrong.
OK, about the LERX antennas, check again that Russian book and read text marked red. Now, look at the list I made comparing Czech and Bulgarian Mig-23ML/MLA serial numbers. Note, the similarity of izd.23-12A and even more important is that the izd.23-12A nor Bulgarian MLA dont have additional LERX antennas you are talking above. I`m curious what you say now.
632 10632 ML izd.23-12 , Bulgarian, an early Mig-23ML differed to the later MLA in some older avionic aggregates.
By: martinez
- 3rd February 2010 at 09:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Actually the whole point of my post was to actually find some answers about this damn MLA , and not to be insulted... what the point of this kind of forum if not spreading information ?
I admit i dont know everything about Mig-23s and so on ...but i'm pretty sure neither do you.
That`s all right, but if you want to find answers or to be informed about things you admit you do not know, try to listen other people apparently knowing much more.
There were two Mig-23ML scraped in Monino when I visited it last time in 2007. You can see another tail of Mig-23ML b/n. blue 125. I`m sorry I mixed these both together, bcs I did not have my pictures yesterday. The Mig-23 Red 19 has s/n 25365, note where it fits in the list of serial numbers I made above. Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
New
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297
- 3rd February 2010 at 12:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think he is talking about this ...( see encircled area)
By: F35b
- 3rd February 2010 at 14:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Talking about the Mig-23. What are the main differences between the Mig-23 and the Mig-27? I know the Mig-27 was built as ground attack and the Mig-23 was meant to be a fighter?
How well does the Mig-27 fit this role. I think that some airforces still operate the 27 (sri-lanka, India?)
I'm guessing the Mig-23 came first and an opportunity was seen to develop it into a ground attack aircraft.
another question is how good is the Mig-23 as a fighter? It seems to offer a number of improvements over the Mig-21.
One last thing is i'm sure i've heard of the Mig-23 being used in the ground attack role. Is this true and if so how good is it at this role?
By: Sens
- 3rd February 2010 at 23:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, exactly..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Mig-23-DNST8908431_JPG.jpg
I am aware about that. That is just one of the later modifications and not all got that. All intrested people are eager to have some visible details to distinguish sub-variants. In the case of the MiG-23ML it does not work always and does not make much sense even. Every customer did decide about the main use of their MiG-23MLs and what he was willing to pay for it from the 80s.
The later MiG-23-98s upgrades offered for all user of MiG-23M and MiG-23ML were avionic upgrades and the gains in combat efficiency from that. The aerodynamic refinements for better AoA behavior were not even mentioned. http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23-98/mig23-98-3.jpg
By: martinez
- 4th February 2010 at 11:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm... Why english stencils? Is it because it was for export? I thought russian export a/c would have russian stencils.
Export Migs to third world countries had english stencils as well as translated documentation to english. I think the aircraft b/n 19 red was used in soviet fighter schools to train foreign pilots.
By: mack8
- 4th February 2010 at 22:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re: Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
By: Sens
- 5th February 2010 at 06:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re: Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
Syrian MLD nose stencils...
Syria is something special. The first foreign language in that country was French. (Syria was a former French protectorate!) Since the 50s they did operate Russian equipment and were trained in the SU, by that they were similar to former Warsaw Pact members.
By: F35b
- 5th February 2010 at 11:54Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you get a copy of combat aircraft magazine this month it has an article in it about Lybian Mig-23's. They operate the MLA and MS? versions. It was an interesting read.
By: mack8
- 5th February 2010 at 14:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you get a copy of combat aircraft magazine this month it has an article in it about Lybian Mig-23's. They operate the MLA and MS? versions. It was an interesting read.
I've read the article aswell , nice pics , but the info there lefts to be desired IMO...
Lybians had MS , MF( suported by photographic evidence) and the export MLDs surfaced recently ...
I'd be very curious to read lybian MLD nose stencils...because thats the only other country apart from Syria and Bulgaria as far as i know that got the export MLDs .( Irak-as mentioned in the russian book-aparently didnt...at leats i'v never seen any , and surely something must have surfaced in the last 7 years since they were ocupied by the americans , if they realy had them...( they upgraded locally their MLs with SPO-15 and ASO-2 , but thats another story)
By: Levsha
- 5th February 2010 at 18:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re: Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
Syrian MLD nose stencils...
The MiG-25 was often nicknamed the 'flying restaurant', or something like that, in Soviet service because of the large amount of alcohol based coolant used to cool the main radar system - and which the servicemen serving on the airfield sometimes liked to imbide from time to time (or so they say). I presume the word 'liquid' stencilled on the fuselage is referring to the very same alcohol based coolant?:confused:
Not that the illegal consumption of such a coolant would be a problem in a mainly muslim country, would it?
By: martinez
- 5th February 2010 at 20:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The MiG-25 was often nicknamed the 'flying restaurant', or something like that, in Soviet service because of the large amount of alcohol based coolant used to cool the main radar system - and which the servicemen serving on the airfield sometimes liked to imbide from time to time (or so they say). I presume the word 'liquid' stencilled on the fuselage is referring to the very same alcohol based coolant?:confused:
Not that the illegal consumption of such a coolant would be a problem in a mainly muslim country, would it?
Shot of arak, anyone?;)
Levsha, please tell me where you read that nonsense about that radar coolant, then I`ll explain and you will see the guy who said that have seen russian aircrafts passing by on a train. :D
By: Sens
- 6th February 2010 at 22:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone have a pic of Lybian MLD showing the nose close enough to read the stencils there? Thank you.
To remain on topic, what is a 23-16 then? is that an initial project for the "full" MLD (23-18) or ...:confused:
No, just different modification standards for reworked Floggers and the designation for the related prototypes. From the "full" MLD (23-18) just 66 were new built examples, when the production was terminated and the lions-share were reworked examples. http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id18.html
Just keep in mind, that all that sub-variants were reworked examples of M and ML built mainly. Not aware of that the claimed number of MiG-23M built was vastly inflated.
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 2nd February 2010 at 19:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think he is talking about this ...( see encircled area)
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 2nd February 2010 at 19:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen guys talking on a german forum back and forth about the same subject , and the shocking conclusion was that a Mig-23MLA is what the Bulgarians,Lybians and Syrians had! ( Mig-23MLD export?) there is only one pic i managed to find of such a machine in russian markings, identified as you all know by the different RWR antennas on the tail and the extra dielectric panel near the wing LERX root, for the same RWR system( SPO-15LE)
However, i think( i might be wrong offcourse) that this particular machine is the prototype for the ...lets call it Export MLD for now( with aditional RWR fairings on LERX, but no MLD aerodinamic modifications), since it has the number 19 red. Too much to be just a coincidence...
Me personally i'm still not fully sure of what the heck is a MLA yet... ( oh and that book is wrong , i have it too , GDR didnt got their MLs in 1985...its sooner -gotta check again )
Anyway the 19 red link...
http://www.airliners.net/photo/1290868
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 2nd February 2010 at 23:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmmm, I have not seen so much ignorance a quite long time. Actually,how much validated evidence do you need to see?? :eek:
1.Authors of Russian publication say it clear, bcs they discussed the MLA issue with the MAPO MIG, various ARZ and VVS representatives, so you hardly will find anywhere a more credible answer.
2. After checking they agreed that the Mig-23MLA denotes code izd. 23-12A.
3.I confirm their statements by showing an export Mig-23ML logbook, look above what it is saying. Izd.23-12A . It means that both Czechoslovakia and GDR received Izd.23-12A, surprisingly from almost the same production batch as the Bulgarian ones, but both airforces accustomed the name Mig-23ML except Bulgarian AF.
4.Some Bulgarian aviation outsiders who cant adequately verify their claims started this mystery saying their MLA are somehow different to the rest to Warsaw Pact Mig-23ML.
5.Please stop this nonsense about the Mig-23ML red 19 scraped at Monino museum as this was one a baseline Mig-23ML used to teach flying Russia`s foreign customers and third world allies. I have been in Monino to investigate this aircraft.
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 3rd February 2010 at 00:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ignorance??? i dont wanna argue with anyone like one can see in other threads about RCS and all that ...
I merely expressed my opinion based on what i've read in a zillion places ( which makes it thats much difficult to sort out the bloody truth!) and i admitted i might be wrong offcourse...
Actually the whole point of my post was to actually find some answers about this damn MLA , and not to be insulted... what the point of this kind of forum if not spreading information ?
I admit i dont know everything about Mig-23s and so on ...but i'm pretty sure neither do you.
The book is wrong . Germans got their MLs sooner , Gordon is right this time.
I'm surprised it didnt jumped in your eyes the non-standard LERX antennas and the different tail RWR configuration of 19 red at Monino, wish i'd be able to travel there. That not a baseline ML config...but again ,i might be wrong.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 3rd February 2010 at 06:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Geez, what are you smoking, is this thread discussing MLA/ML in principle or when Germans got their aircrafts???:eek::eek: :mad: Yes, the Russian book is wrong, but it is irrelevant.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 3rd February 2010 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, about the LERX antennas, check again that Russian book and read text marked red. Now, look at the list I made comparing Czech and Bulgarian Mig-23ML/MLA serial numbers. Note, the similarity of izd.23-12A and even more important is that the izd.23-12A nor Bulgarian MLA dont have additional LERX antennas you are talking above. I`m curious what you say now.
632 10632 ML izd.23-12 , Bulgarian, an early Mig-23ML differed to the later MLA in some older avionic aggregates.
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLA/1346569/L/
b/n 4641 s/n 24641 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4644 s/n 24644 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4645 s/n 24645 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4850 s/n 24850 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4855 s/n 24855 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4857 s/n 24857 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 4860 s/n 24860 MLA izd.23-12A Czech
b/n 065 s/n 24865 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
b/n 866 s/n 24866 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
b/n 867 s/n 24867 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
b/n 868 s/n 24868 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
b/n 870 s/n 24870 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
b/n 875 s/n 24875 MLA izd.23-12A Bulgarian
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLA/1306676/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLA/0634008/L/
b/n 389 s/n 25389 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 390 s/n 25390 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 392 s/n 25392 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 395 s/n 25395 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 203 s/n 27203 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 205 s/n 27205 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
b/n 211 s/n 27211 mld izd.23-22A Bulgarian
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLD/1317636/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLA/0390357/L/
b/n 308 s/n 20298 mld izd.23-18 Bulgarian
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLD/1317634/L/
http://www.airliners.net/photo/Bulgaria---Air/Mikoyan-Gurevich-MiG-23MLD/1307753/L/
Note the difference between the Mig-23MLD izd.23-22A and izd.23-18!!
P.S. The whole list of Bulgarian AF Migs-23 serials is written here...
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/bulgaria/af/types/mig2.htm
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 3rd February 2010 at 09:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That`s all right, but if you want to find answers or to be informed about things you admit you do not know, try to listen other people apparently knowing much more.
There were two Mig-23ML scraped in Monino when I visited it last time in 2007. You can see another tail of Mig-23ML b/n. blue 125. I`m sorry I mixed these both together, bcs I did not have my pictures yesterday. The Mig-23 Red 19 has s/n 25365, note where it fits in the list of serial numbers I made above. Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
Posts: 10,217
By: flex297 - 3rd February 2010 at 12:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, exactly..Posts: 421
By: F35b - 3rd February 2010 at 14:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Talking about the Mig-23. What are the main differences between the Mig-23 and the Mig-27? I know the Mig-27 was built as ground attack and the Mig-23 was meant to be a fighter?
How well does the Mig-27 fit this role. I think that some airforces still operate the 27 (sri-lanka, India?)
I'm guessing the Mig-23 came first and an opportunity was seen to develop it into a ground attack aircraft.
another question is how good is the Mig-23 as a fighter? It seems to offer a number of improvements over the Mig-21.
One last thing is i'm sure i've heard of the Mig-23 being used in the ground attack role. Is this true and if so how good is it at this role?
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 3rd February 2010 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Mig-23-DNST8908431_JPG.jpg
I am aware about that. That is just one of the later modifications and not all got that. All intrested people are eager to have some visible details to distinguish sub-variants. In the case of the MiG-23ML it does not work always and does not make much sense even. Every customer did decide about the main use of their MiG-23MLs and what he was willing to pay for it from the 80s.
The later MiG-23-98s upgrades offered for all user of MiG-23M and MiG-23ML were avionic upgrades and the gains in combat efficiency from that. The aerodynamic refinements for better AoA behavior were not even mentioned.
http://www.airwar.ru/image/idop/fighter/mig23-98/mig23-98-3.jpg
Posts: 204
By: Z1pp0 - 3rd February 2010 at 23:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm... Why english stencils? Is it because it was for export? I thought russian export a/c would have russian stencils.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 4th February 2010 at 11:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Export Migs to third world countries had english stencils as well as translated documentation to english. I think the aircraft b/n 19 red was used in soviet fighter schools to train foreign pilots.
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 4th February 2010 at 22:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Re: Interesting is that when the Bulgarian Mig-23MLD 23-22A was equipped with N-008E, but the "B variant" for third world allies was equipped with N-003E.
Syrian MLD nose stencils...
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 5th February 2010 at 06:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Syria is something special. The first foreign language in that country was French. (Syria was a former French protectorate!) Since the 50s they did operate Russian equipment and were trained in the SU, by that they were similar to former Warsaw Pact members.
Posts: 421
By: F35b - 5th February 2010 at 11:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If you get a copy of combat aircraft magazine this month it has an article in it about Lybian Mig-23's. They operate the MLA and MS? versions. It was an interesting read.
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 5th February 2010 at 14:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've read the article aswell , nice pics , but the info there lefts to be desired IMO...
Lybians had MS , MF( suported by photographic evidence) and the export MLDs surfaced recently ...
I'd be very curious to read lybian MLD nose stencils...because thats the only other country apart from Syria and Bulgaria as far as i know that got the export MLDs .( Irak-as mentioned in the russian book-aparently didnt...at leats i'v never seen any , and surely something must have surfaced in the last 7 years since they were ocupied by the americans , if they realy had them...( they upgraded locally their MLs with SPO-15 and ASO-2 , but thats another story)
Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 5th February 2010 at 18:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The MiG-25 was often nicknamed the 'flying restaurant', or something like that, in Soviet service because of the large amount of alcohol based coolant used to cool the main radar system - and which the servicemen serving on the airfield sometimes liked to imbide from time to time (or so they say). I presume the word 'liquid' stencilled on the fuselage is referring to the very same alcohol based coolant?:confused:
Not that the illegal consumption of such a coolant would be a problem in a mainly muslim country, would it?
Shot of arak, anyone?;)
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 5th February 2010 at 20:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Levsha, please tell me where you read that nonsense about that radar coolant, then I`ll explain and you will see the guy who said that have seen russian aircrafts passing by on a train. :D
Posts: 2,114
By: mack8 - 6th February 2010 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone have a pic of Lybian MLD showing the nose close enough to read the stencils there? Thank you.
To remain on topic, what is a 23-16 then? is that an initial project for the "full" MLD (23-18) or ...:confused:
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 6th February 2010 at 22:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, just different modification standards for reworked Floggers and the designation for the related prototypes. From the "full" MLD (23-18) just 66 were new built examples, when the production was terminated and the lions-share were reworked examples.
http://backfiretu-22m.tripod.com/id18.html
Just keep in mind, that all that sub-variants were reworked examples of M and ML built mainly. Not aware of that the claimed number of MiG-23M built was vastly inflated.