Serbian Air Force status

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19 years 8 months

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According to "Update airforce senario: Albania" thread, the Serbian air force has 8 operational MiG-21s and 10 G-4s, while the J-22s are going to be retired and the MiG-29s are no longer flying, could someone give us an update?

Original post

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24 years 2 months

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Now, do take the person making that statement in the Albania-thread into consideration Canpark. In the next weeks/months we should be getting the annual CFE revelations, let's wait for those.

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19 years 2 months

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In it's hayday the old Yugoslav air force had about 600 aircraft (1000+ if you count helicopters). This included mostly domestically produced planes (which were pretty crappy) but also about 200 Mig-21's... After the break up instead of divving it up to everyone the Serbs took it all... All the planes except for the Mig-29's were used extensivly during the balkans wars. Due to the extremely poor quality of serb pilots, they were falling out of the sky like flies and by the end of the Bosnian war less then half of this air force remained... The problem is, it was mostly Croats and Slovenians who were the good pilots (averaging 400 hours during the 80's), and the engineers and technicicans who kept the planes running, and all that... The serbs were the guys who gave all the orders, but didn't really contribute anything else to the military (and not just the military, this is how the entire country ran)... So after all the knowledgeble technicians and pilots and all left to croatia/slovenia the Serbs had no clue how to maintian the air force and it slowly began falling apart...

Today there are 60 Mig-21's left... Most of them are in various states of decay. Only 8 are flyable... Keep in mind flyable is still far from what would be declared a combat-capable plane in the west.

There are some 30 G-4's of which 10 can fly (on a good day).

There are some 40 J-22's of which I don't know how many can fly (definately less than 10) but they will be retired in a few months so it's not worth counting them.

There are 4 Mig-29's and neither of them can fly.

Some older planes like J-21's and G-2's have been mothballed a few years ago and besides these are realy old planes which have ZERO use in a modern battle, just like we saw in 1995 when a single F-16 shot down like 8 of them in Bosnia...

The very best pilots (which are still very bad by western standards) get around 10 hours a year in the air, while the rest of the pilots havn't flown in several years...

I am less uptodate on the helicopter fleet but it consists of less than 30 altogether including Mi-8, Mi-2, Mi-4, Ka-25, Ka-27, and some locally built peace of crap...

If you want to buy used military planes go to serbia... Complete Mig-21's go for around 50 grand... They don't fly but maybe you can fix them up.

And there are no prospects for the future... The country has no intentions to buy anything, isntead it will scrap it's fighter force and rely on it's neighbors to patrol it's air space... Albania will get 10 Mig-21's from Ukraine and in addition to the 11 F-7's it has will have IAI upgrade them to Mig-21-2000 and then will get Turkish F-16's so we will be the dominant power in the region...

This info came straight from the serb defense ministry....

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LOL don't bother trying to argue with this guy.

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24 years 2 months

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This info came straight from the serb defense ministry....

No it didn't. Your post displays a very subjective view of the history of the former Yugoslavia, not to mention of the break-up of said state. It does, however, neatly fit the historiography of some of the republics which broke away - that doesn't make it fact. I will not dispute your right to have an opinion on this matter, how or why would I, but your post should not be taken as fact by other members of the forum. I hope that they would have the sense to take into consideration the subjectivity of posters (including my own), particularly when such a debateable topic is being discussed.

I will also add that there is one thing your post rightly highlighted and that is the dire state of the air force (and armed forces in general) of Serbia and Montenegro. That is not to say that this was stated in a factually correct manner or that the brief background you gave was even remotely linked to fact.

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19 years 9 months

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...This included mostly domestically produced planes (which were pretty crappy) ... Due to the extremely poor quality of serb pilots, they were falling out of the sky like flies ... was mostly Croats and Slovenians who were the good pilots ... The serbs were the guys who gave all the orders, but didn't really contribute anything else to the military ... the Serbs had no clue how to maintian the air force and it slowly began falling apart ... The very best pilots (which are still very bad by western standards) get around 10 hours a year in the air ... I am less uptodate on the helicopter fleet but it consists of less than 30 altogether including Mi-8, Mi-2, Mi-4, Ka-25, Ka-27, and some locally built peace of crap ... Albania will get 10 Mig-21's from Ukraine and in addition to the 11 F-7's it has will have IAI upgrade them to Mig-21-2000 and then will get Turkish F-16's so we will be the dominant power in the region ... This info came straight from the serb defense ministry....

OK! Everybody sing along:

Trolling, trolling, trolling,
Keep them posts a trolling,
Trollin, trolling, trolling,
Flamewaaaaaaaaar!
:D

Can we please ignore his obvious trolling and go back to a constructive discussion?

...the MiG-29s are no longer flying, could someone give us an update?

Wasn't there something in AFM about there being a MiG-29 refurbishment in the pipes?

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24 years 2 months

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Wasn't there something in AFM about there being a MiG-29 refurbishment in the pipes?

I seriously doubt that any MiG-29s will be upgraded. More likely that was reference to a MiG-21 upgrade which is still considerred as a serious option.

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20 years 7 months

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I think they will eventually keep the Mig-21s just to give our pilots some supersonic training and keep it there for Air Policing, nothing else. G-4Ms are going to be doing all the CAS/Interdiction work and such.

J-22s will probably be going out of service pretty fast too.

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19 years 9 months

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I seriously doubt that any MiG-29s will be upgraded. More likely that was reference to a MiG-21 upgrade which is still considerred as a serious option.

Here we go: AFM, August 2004, page 10, Overhaul of SCG aircraft in Russia. The article goes on to talk of discussions about a possible MiG-29 refurbishment/overhaul not an upgrade. That being said I'd agree with you that scrapping the MiG-29 and going for a full blown MiG-21 upgrade, as opposed to a mere MiG-29 overhaul, sounds more sensible. Just as an example, the MiG-21 Lancer seems to be working reasonably well for Romania.

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24 years 2 months

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Bla bla bla F-16's from Turkey, bla bla bla Leopard 2's from Germany. Bla bla bla.

If any of you want to buy some parts of the soon to be "dominant power in the region", think fast as the fire sale is on.

http://www.stormloader.com/albanianarmy/m21f1303.jpg
http://www.stormloader.com/albanianarmy/MiG-19-01.jpg

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24 years 2 months

Posts: 610

Here we go: AFM, August 2004, page 10, Overhaul of SCG aircraft in Russia. The article goes on to talk of discussions about a possible MiG-29 refurbishment/overhaul not an upgrade. That being said I'd agree with you that scrapping the MiG-29 and going for a full blown MiG-21 upgrade, as opposed to a mere MiG-29 overhaul, sounds more sensible. Just as an example, the MiG-21 Lancer seems to be working reasonably well for Romania.

The way RSK Mig handled the Bulgarian contract was probably noted in Belgrade. Even still, more to the point the relatively small Serb Mig-29 fleet probably wouldn't cut it. Why put one's eggs into the same, small basket when there are the more numerous Mig-21's which can be upgraded (a la Lancer) and provide reasonable detterent numbers as well as airframes for spares etc?

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24 years 2 months

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Here we go: AFM, August 2004, page 10, Overhaul of SCG aircraft in Russia. The article goes on to talk of discussions about a possible MiG-29 refurbishment/overhaul not an upgrade. That being said I'd agree with you that scrapping the MiG-29 and going for a full blown MiG-21 upgrade, as opposed to a mere MiG-29 overhaul, sounds more sensible. Just as an example, the MiG-21 Lancer seems to be working reasonably well for Romania.

Oops, sorry. Minor misunderstanding regarding the words "refurbishment" and "upgrade". My mistake. Anyway, a refurbishment and overhaul would seem to make sense - i.e. why not use them and keep them flying for another couple of years.

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19 years 8 months

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One question, has the Serbian air force purchase any new aircraft in recent years?

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20 years 7 months

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Not really, and the only thing they plan in the future is upgrades of Mi-8s, G-4s and other aircraft.

IMO the Mig-21-93 is a better upgrade than the LANCER, because importantly it greatly increases the life of the airframe, as opposed to LANCER being a cockpit upgrade. Besides the Mig-21-93 has BVR capability, which imo is not that important in our case, but nonetheless it's there.

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24 years 2 months

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Actually I consider it to be highly important for the Serbian airforce to be able to operate a BVR capable fighter again. First of all, Serbia's closest neighbours and, therefore, most likely threats all operate or will soon operate fighters which are capable of fighting a BVR fight. Furthermore she needs to maintain that capability in order to stay ahead of the game when it comes to potential conflict with neighbours who don't necesarily operate BVR capable fighters (and who are unlikely to for some time to come) - Albania for example.
Another important area for the Serbian&Montenerin AF is ground attack. This is another reason for which I am a proponent of the MiG-21 upgrade - it is important to operate airframes which are capable of performing as many roles as possible. It would really mean a lot to be able to clip a couple of KAB-500s or LGB-250s to a MiG-21 if you need to attack an enemy precisely and from medium altitude.
Still, it must be remembered that other matters have to be resolved before anything as exciting as a MiG-21 upgrade will happen in Serbia.

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20 years 6 months

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If you were to ask me, I would do with out the MiG-21 upgradidlio. Save up some money and ask China for a deal where they can license produce the FC-1 like Pakistan.

benefits:

1. give it to SOKO or whatever is left of the Serbian aviation industry, let them produce the FC-1 under liscense and help out your local economy while giving them something a bit more modern to play with. Sure, the FC-1 is no Novi Avion, but Serbia is hardly the former Yugoslavia.

2. Cheap BVR capabilities, and simple enough to mass produce and get rid of those Mig-21s faster

3. same engine as your MiG-29 fleet, help simplify logistics here.

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Interesting idea - I wonder if the FC-1 can be made NATO compatible.

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20 years 6 months

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Interesting idea - I wonder if the FC-1 can be made NATO compatible.

throw in a Grifo radar and you're closer to it. Although to be in all seriousness, do you REALLY want to join NATO? :dev2:

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24 years 2 months

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Personally no. But there is a lot of debate about it at the moment and it is certainly a possibility so you've got to keep it in consideration when looking at future purchases. Anyway, it will at least have to be capable of compatability with other EU forces 'cos like it or not Serbia as a nation is practically desperate to join the EU.

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20 years 6 months

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Personally no. But there is a lot of debate about it at the moment and it is certainly a possibility so you've got to keep it in consideration when looking at future purchases. Anyway, it will at least have to be capable of compatability with other EU forces 'cos like it or not Serbia as a nation is practically desperate to join the EU.

you can Join the EU and NOT be in NATO like ye olde Svenskland

or

you can join NATO and NOT be in the EU, like Norway, the Europe's #1 land of Ice and Oil.

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24 years 2 months

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Well if you ask me neither is very likely for a long time (including what ever combinations of NATO and EU one likes to think up) but that is not to say that military aquisitions will not be geared towards one or the other (or both) - regardless of the likeliness of successful entry into either organisation.