The great aircraft bazaar: French donated airframes since 2017

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It's a mystery to me how French could have gave away so much aircraft at such a low cost since 2017 and the beginning of the Macron government. Here is a short list in chronological order of all donated aiframes so far with when relevant a link to the deal as a reference:





So far, we have a total of 123 airframe "sold" for 382M€* (50% of them sold for under 82M€ in total ) in 17 months**...

If you have planned lately to buy yourself a Cessna, the great aircraft bazaar is still open to date ;)

EDIT 1:
Added SE deal with Argentinia

* a 3.25M$ price tag per aircraft on average !
** 7 airframes offered per month dwarfing most of the sale performances of their national industry (military)!

Original post

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It's not a mystery that french bashing is your favorite hobby.

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I wouldn't call selling Mirage F1's for over $5.3 million a piece a giveaway. It's a super old design. You either sell them cheap for a little money and mainly just to get them off your hands or you pay to put them in the junkyard.

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I would like to think that the Argies would have been pleased to get some at this price...
Not mentioning some nations on the African continent.
The latest F1-C were phased-out while still having a good potential.
ATAK plans to get 9000h per year out of them (half of them used for spare) and upgrades their systems on a quite remarkable way...

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I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.


now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/12/02/angela-merkels-apparent-successor-questions-nato-spending-targets/


Angela Merkel's apparent successor questions Nato spending targets


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The Argentinians already struggle to pay for 5 used Super Etendard Modernise they ordered for $2 million each earlier this year.
The latest F1-C were retired 15 years ago. They were largely obsolescent and mainly used for type conversion training.
A lot of freshly retired airframe is always kept in storage for sell to potential foreign customers.

So as usual, TomcatVIP, you're way off the mark, talking about stuff you don't know about.

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OPIT your usual rambling to wage discontent is as much a cheap bargain as this is.

63 Mirage F1, dont 7 F1B et 56 en version CT/CR. Parmi ces appareils, entre 40 et 45 appareils vont être remis en état de vol, tandis que le restant, une vingtaine, seront cannibalisés pour utiliser les pièces de rechange.
[...]
Sur ce stock de Mirage F1, la moitié est classée en catégorie RSD1 (retiré du service). Il s’agit d’appareils qui peuvent reprendre quasi immédiatement les airs, conservés dans un environnement adapté et encore sous la responsabilité des états-majors et de la DGA. La seconde moitié est classée RSD2. Ils sont gérés par la SIMMAD, ils peuvent être cannibalisés et du travail est demandé pour leur refaire reprendre les airs.

--------------Translated by myself since shouting ain't as fun as a comprehensive talk it seems -----------------
63 Mirage F1, including 7 F1B and 56 in CT / CR version. Among those planes, between 40 and 45 aircraft will be reinstated, while the remaining twenty will be cannibalized to use the spare parts.
[...]
Of this stock of Mirage F1, half is categorized as RSD1 (just retired of service). These are planes that can almost immediately be returned to flight having been kept in a suitable environment and are still under the responsibility of the DGA. The second half is categorized as RSD2. They are managed by the SIMMAD service, they can be cannibalized and some work is required to make them flyable again.

With 9000h being planned by ATAK per year (flying half their fleet), you have a significant flight tempo* that won't shy against what the F1 have seen during their OP life in France

But thank you for the SE sale. I had forgotten it and would add this to the list.

Source (in French but a nice read):
http://www.defens-aero.com/2018/07/l...-francais.html

*9000/63/2~=9000/30=300hr per year per airframe

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By donating the airframes to another country surely the French or whoever are monetising these planes that are surplus to requirements. Training packages for the air crew and maintainers, continued business for the consumables supply chain. Surely this is a better outcome for the public purse than bringing in a JCB to scrap them?

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[USER="27714"]PhilipG[/USER] : It's something that I have been looking at obviously and there is zero clue for that.

F1 are specifically to be maintained via the Belgian network
SE are furnished with spare parts and, as airframe have been in service in Argentina for decades, the knowledge basis will be in country.
Jags are to be cannibalized for spares

Pumas contract only have paid maintenance for 160m€ but with no details on which specific platforms (3 diiferent types - two are modern type to be manufactured for that contract). But regarding the Pumas it's not like France is still the only place where to source H225 spare parts...

Only Mirages 2000 seems to fit the bill. But then India has been operating M2K for decades and probably won't need much more support from France for only a couple of extra airframe.

[USER="15685"]Sintra[/USER] : you didn't hear me on that subject before, right? Especially when the first contract were issued... We are now past 120 aircraft in 17th month. This is unheard until now. And once again, no call for tender etc... Nothing. Half of those aircraft were "sold" for the grand total of less than 83M€ (~90M$)!

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Tomcat, you know SABCA is owned by DA don't you?

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8 years 10 months

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Obviously. But it still doesn't fill the hypothesis brought forward by PhilipG that I corrected with more details.

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10 years 2 months

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Glad to be corrected, obviously the "Donation" of surplus aircraft etc could also be seen as an extension of Soft Power.

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Is there a real question here ?

Profile picture for user BlackArcher

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I was wondering the same..what is the real purpose of this thread?

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I wouldn't be surprised that even Rafale added to this bazaar. . After all French practically stop upgrading M2K to get not fully functional Rafale.
now they are going to built 6G fighter with a country that that has rejected digital tax, euro budget and dithering on basic funding.

How can anyone reasonable write such BS?
Profile picture for user Fedaykin

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I have to say the slant of your argument is pretty odd TomcatViP, I would think the circumstances of those sales and gifts would be obvious. As PhilipG rightly points out there is the issue of Soft Power to consider as well beyond pure economics, from my part you also need to consider the state of the used Fighter market as well. So pick up each point made:


I gather the argument you are making is France are not making enough money from this sale? The thing is whilst the Mirage F-1 is a good aircraft it is has fared poorly on the international surplus market, France and a number of other F-1 operators have spent years attempting to sell surplus F-1 to no avail. Remember the F-1 exists in a world where there are surplus F-16 and Su-27 available at very attractive prices, also very attractive credit lines can be extended for new build fighters. The Mirage F-1 is just not that attractive to buyers when what else can be purchased is considered. ATAK on the other hand are a company that want a high performance type but without all the complex systems, for them the F-1 with all the spares is highly attractive and for the French being able to shift their fleet plus all the spares in bulk is fantastic especially when it means a 300m€ return to the treasury! It saves the cost of scrapping them!
The only nation left operating the Jaguar is India and like the F-1 the chance of selling them on elsewhere is slim beyond companies like ATAK. France has significant interest in selling advanced arms to India it being a lucrative market, the Soft Power of making the gesture of this gift that will help India continue operate the type for many more years is highly valuable to the French.
Like the F-1 the Mirage 2000 has not had that much success in the surplus market albeit that might change as France makes more available as the Rafale takes on more of its roles. Just the same as the Jaguar gift this has Geopolitical advantages to France.
I don't know the details of this deal but the Ukraine needs Helicopters and it certainly thumbs a nose at Russia so I would put this down as for the Geopolitical benefits and certainly there is no harm in keeping the factory busy.
Put simply this was a time limited deal and it isn't yet certain that it will go through considering the Argentine defence budget. There is all but zero chance that France would find any other buyer and selling a simulator, spares and a few airframes will return more money to the French treasury than scrapping the lot.

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I don't know the details of this deal but the Ukraine needs Helicopters and it certainly thumbs a nose at Russia so I would put this down as for the Geopolitical benefits and certainly there is no harm in keeping the factory busy.


[/quote]
we don't know Ukraine need those helicopters. but one thing is clear. once Ukranain pilots and maintainance are trained on it. they will likely want to get there jobs in other countries where salaries much higher and new crew will need training constantly. its already showing up in deindustrialization on top of debt to buy foreign helicopters.


https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/522232.html

Motor Sich sees 61% fall in consolidated net profit in H1 2018


[LEFT][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Georgia][SIZE=16px]According to a company report, its consolidated net revenue in H1 2018 fell by 14.78%, to UAH 5.811 billion.
[/SIZE][/FONT][/COLOR][/LEFT]
Profile picture for user Fedaykin

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I have family in Ukraine JSR including those who are members of their Armed forces, they NEED helicopters!

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. remember your opinion about Chinese technology based on Chinese relative. I mentioned those helicopters . the are not sufficiently protected for armed forces nor they reliable for Ukranian budget. Ukraine situation is very similar like Japan.
https://www.kyivpost.com/business/ryanair-seeks-hire-ukrainians-pilots-…
Ryanair seeks to hire more Ukrainians: pilots, stewards and 250 IT specialists

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My dear Fedaykin,

It's sad that your judgement was eclipsed by the sour odd-saying of some here that Tom is bad and anti-whatever. Shall I remind you that we are here on a free forum where analysis and compiled information to start a discussion is the core of our micro "society". This is all about Keypub forum. So I am sad that an old member as you are will oddly try to throw that at my face pridely.

The point of this thread is only to compile information we have on the subject of Gov Macron giveaway airframe and how oddly cheap are all those sales.

----------------------------------

To give some arguments at your point, please remind that the Mirage F-1 were said to be offered to Argentina at 20M$ per airframe not so long ago (I even think I can remember how you seemed then quite enthusiastic at this idea):

The dispute has allowed the resurgence of a proposal from France to supply a squadron of Mirage F-1, at a unit cost of US$ 23 million, but fully equipped and five years of logistic support.

For the H225, the French ALAT (the one force in France that uses most of the Puma) has a 33% availability today. One of the worst of its (long and prestigious) history. I am sure that a fresh influx of (said so) low used airframe would have been appreciated by the service. Last but not least, the fact that the Pumas have been over-used by both the Fr and British army should put the cost of any spare parts rather high.

It's the same thing with the Jags. The fact that only one nation is in need for such airframe should put their cost on the up-side. Everybody acquainted with market rules should understand this quite easily... Especially when this flows of available part will compete directly with Fr national industry (that have been contracted for this to the point of raising a controversy) or were to be sold at an unknown price.

Regarding the M2K dual seat trainers are hard to get since not as many were built. This make them having a value, especially when AdlA will keep their Mirage longer that what was planned initially.

----------------------------------

Last but not least I perfectly understand the Soft power argument to promote the image of the French democracy around the world (PhilipG) but when you give away 120 airframe for more or less 90M$, it doesn't makes any sense... Especially when payment for the priciest of them, let's remember, 300M$ for the full fleet of just decommissioned modern airframe, is routed via a single Freelancer in Switzerland

My 2 cents.

EDIT:
I should mention the fact that I have been advocating the idea of selling the F-1 to ATAC and selling some Jags for cheap to India to help them in managing their fleet well before the events. Oddly as it seems, this has even been discussed before here as it is, with you ,my dear Feydakin, on some case, opposing my arguments.
I should probably look at how I could offer you a decent internet browser for Christmas
;)