2019 F-35 News and Discussion

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Turkey refuses to cancel S-400 order, risking F-35 delivery again

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu said his country would consider buying Raytheon-made Patriot missiles from the US government, but would not cancel its order of S-400 anti-aircraft missiles from Russia as a condition of the deal.

The US State Department approved the possible sale of 80 Patriot MIM-104E missiles, 60 PAC-3 missiles and related equipment for $3.5 billion to Turkey in December 2018. It was part of an apparent attempt to get the country to cancel its order for the lmaz-Antey S-400 Triumf surface-to-air missile system. The US military is concerned that the S-400 system, which is advertised as having anti-stealth capabilities, could expose vulnerabilities in the Lockheed Martin F-35A Lightning II stealth fighter, which Turkey has also purchased and is awaiting delivery.

However, in a recent interview with Turkish broadcaster NTV Cavusoglu says that cancelling the S-400 order is off the table.

“The S-400 agreement is already a finished deal,” he says. “We can deal with the United States for the Patriot, but if it's about the S-400, no.”

More at the JUMP
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/turkey-refuses-to-cancel-s-400-order-risking-f-35-d-454939/

Profile picture for user SpudmanWP

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UK F-35B IOC is for the "Land" mission, not carrier IOC which is set for 2020.

IOC L for the F-35B is marked by having nine aircraft ready to deploy on combat operations anywhere around the world, and sees the platform cleared to carry the Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM), the MBDA AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM), and the Raytheon Paveway IV laser-guided bomb (LGB).

More at the Jump
https://www.janes.com/article/85649/...r-f-35-typhoon
Profile picture for user LMFS

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Really guys, anybody could explain what is going on in the US with the F-35s and the Turkish S-400? Shouldn't it be of the greatest interest for the US to get them operating together??

> Prove their stealth is effective against the most modern Russian export SAM
> Get valuable intelligence about the operational details of the system, given they will have access to the planes through ALIS. Not saying it is necessarily legal but gaining intelligence on potential adversaries is and will be a relevant state activity.

Even when the export version is not the same as the Russian one, this is the best SAM US would possibly find abroad opposing them so cannot understand what the fears are and why do they not take this opportunity to learn about the S-400 and possibly even discredit it... any ideas?

Profile picture for user FBW

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LMFS, first thing I would do is stop looking at this issue through the lens of defense media reports about this issue. This isn’t about whether Turkey’s purchase would “prove” or “disprove” the stealthiness of the F-35 or the S-400’s ability to detect it. It has everything to do with Turkey ignoring CAASTA (as a NATO member). A secondary issue may be sensitive information about sharing the F-35’s threat library and how it detects, identifies, and counters such systems. But mostly it’s due to an alleged ally buying a weapon system from a nation being sanctioned by the majority of NATO.

Addition- I’ve read some of the Russian sites speculation on this issues, they do tend to focus on the same non-issue “the US is worried the F-35 won’t be stealthy against the S-400”, or that it will prove or disprove this or that. I think it’s safe to assume that both the US and Russia have a rough model of what distances/vectors the F-35 can be detected by the S-400 in ideal conditions (in adverse EW environments is a whole other story). This isn’t the 1980’s where LO aircraft rely on signature reduction alone ala F-117.

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@FBW:

Not trying to make sensationalism about this, mine is a honest question. I don't understand what is so serious to risk the relation with a critical ally and NATO member and also the supply chain of the F-35 program.


This isn’t about whether Turkey’s purchase would “prove” or “disprove” the stealthiness of the F-35 or the S-400’s ability to detect it.

Maybe, but honestly, do you think results from this experience would not be used for PR purposes by any of the two sides?

It has everything to do with Turkey ignoring CAASTA (as a NATO member).

Since when US has jurisdiction over all NATO members? US should not need foul play to defend their interests and much less force other countries to engage in such deeds to please them and against their national interests. This just shows an elementary lack of respect for other countries' sovereignty, maybe you want to elaborate what you mean?

A secondary issue may be sensitive information about sharing the F-35’s threat library and how it detects, identifies, and counters such systems.

Ok, don't understand what has S-400 to do with this. Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean but this sounds to me rather as a leak of internal F-35 information than something related to S-400 capabilities. BTW, wouldn't US have the opportunity to gain similarly relevant knowledge about the S-400?

But mostly it’s due to an alleged ally buying a weapon system from a nation being sanctioned by the majority of NATO.

No need to hide behind NATO, CAATSA is an US issue. In any case there are many other ways US can pressure Turkey, but they are focusing on F-35 more than it looks reasonable.

Addition- I’ve read some of the Russian sites speculation on this issues, they do tend to focus on the same non-issue “the US is worried the F-35 won’t be stealthy against the S-400”, or that it will prove or disprove this or that.

We can pretend it is not an issue but it is. National prestige associated to capabilities of US' stealth planes is huge. The same goes for Russia's SAM systems. Both sides use the propaganda in defence of their interests, as all nations have been doing for millennia.

I think it’s safe to assume that both the US and Russia have a rough model of what distances/vectors the F-35 can be detected by the S-400 in ideal conditions.

The issue would be if values not corresponding to claimed capacities of any of the systems would emerge. US side claims their stand-off ranges are more than enough given the detection capabilities of modern Russian SAMs. Russians laugh about the RCS values published for US VLO designs and seem quite confident they can handle them. Someone is exaggerating and could end up discredited in a worst case.

(in adverse EW environments is a whole other story).

Agree, but jamming a SAM system with 400 km range interceptors is not that easy, as far as I know. Hence MALDS and its further developments, US needs expendable jamming assets to operate in such environments.

This isn’t the 1980’s where LO aircraft rely on signature reduction alone ala F-117.

True, and this progress also applies to IADS illuminating LO targets from different aspects at different frequencies, relying on VHF radars, OTH, PCL and other resources against which RCS reduction technology is not that effective. BTW this goes against the claims of LO planes being capable of operating unsupported, which to me looks clearly marketing destined to make justifiable the increased costs of operating the newer, more complex planes.

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Since when US has jurisdiction over all NATO members?

Since forever, tbh

Ok, don't understand what has S-400 to do with this. Maybe I don't fully understand what you mean but this sounds to me rather as a leak of internal F-35 information than something related to S-400 capabilities. BTW, wouldn't US have the opportunity to gain similarly relevant knowledge about the S-400?

If Turkey operate both F-35 and S-400, they could look at how the threat library of F-35 operate and thus make their own S-400 more potent, which is not necessarily what the US want

but jamming a SAM system with 400 km range interceptors is not that easy
Hence MALDS and its further developments, US needs expendable jamming assets to operate in such environments.

Before MALD, they had ITALD, which came from TALD which came before the day of 400 km interceptor, it is natural evolution

this progress also applies to IADS illuminating LO targets from different aspects at different frequencies, relying on VHF radars, OTH, PCL.

VHF and OTH radar are not recent development btw, even the old Sa-75 and Sa-125 already had low frequency radar and multiple radars operate at multiple frequency

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if Turkey operate both F-35 and S-400, they could look at how the threat library of F-35 operate and thus make their own S-400 more potent, which is not necessarily what the US want

what about Chinese supercomputers and industrial robots. are they not improving S400?. or even the whole Israel flying around Syria in small airspace. this is real life practice to airdefence systems of interception and flight profiles of the smallest bomb.



http://tass.com/defense/1004464

"One of the key tasks is to improve anti-precision warfare means. It is necessary to develop and build up technological groundwork in the area of air defense, to continue modernization of Pantsir systems



VHF and OTH radar are not recent development btw, even the old Sa-75 and Sa-125 already had low frequency radar and multiple radars operate at multiple frequency



old manufacture.

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The same applies in reverse though. They could glean information about the S-400 and disseminate it among NATO states.

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it does not apply in reverse. Turkey has fundamental conflict with Arab world, Greece, Israel and want to squeeze money out of Europe as they not want to let it in completely. so Turkey need another country that can continuously supply high technology and efficient resources. .. what will happen Turkey buy much more weopons after seeing S400 effectiveness. ?

Turkey sold UAVs to Ukraine and it will implement that trade deal that will only benefit it. this dependency will increase.

[quote]
https://www.kyivpost.com/business/ukraine-and-uk-to-start-talks-about-new-trade-agreement.html
“The Ukrainian delegation has a fundamental position that a free trade agreement must comply with its name, thus a deep liberalization of access to the markets,” says Pidlasa – “Turkey is currently not ready.”[/quote]

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The same applies in reverse though.

No it does not as the F-35 & ALIS do not automatically send back that kind of granular data.

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Since when US has jurisdiction over all NATO members?


Since forever, tbh

Which in any case is about to change, hense the much noise from US.

There is ofcourse another reason here, US are still very much trying to suffocate the Russian Military Industrial Complex and sparring on each and every Russian export customer is very important for US strategy.
Just imagine what else Turkey will procure from Russia if this S-400 deal go through!

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The article linked to by SpudmanWP says: "The UK declared major milestones for its Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning and Eurofighter Typhoon forces on 10 January."

This is not correct. What happened on 10 January was that there was a formal ceremony marking IOC Land for the F-35B and for the Centurion Typhoon. These capabilities were both formally 'declared' late last year, ahead of the planned 31 December deadlines.

The F-35B declaration was made about a fortnight before 31 December, according to CAS, ACM Sir Stephen Hillier.

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[USER="20936"]SpudmanWP[/USER]:

I am not going to claim any kind of knowledge about ALIS beyond the most elementary, but it would be not very realistic IMO to think US would renounce to information critical to national security like F-35 readings of S-400 signatures, regardless of what publicly known features of ALIS are. More considering only Israel was allowed to modify the fighter's SW and rest of buyers are essentially left to trust US good will and above all keep a friendly posture towards America to avoid having their fleet grounded.

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ALIS uploads are to be customized upon customer's preferences This is what has been confirmed.

Thinking that the F-35 will openly spy on LM customers taping their national security data is something that should be discussed only after a heavy drinking party somewhere at Eurofighter or Dassault's headquarters. Past this localized geographical area it does not make much sense. So please let's discontinue this crazy looking conversation.

Thanks in advance.

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US tapping on someone else's data? Never happened, lets not fall into political incorrectness! You can ignore obvious, elephant size vulnerabilities and differential treatment for Israel and believe everything we are said, I am ok with that. Hope you are ok with other people having other opinion. In any case it is curious that you consider it acceptable for Turkey, or am I understanding wrong?

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US tapping on someone else's data? Never happened, lets not fall into political incorrectness! You can ignore obvious, elephant size vulnerabilities and differential treatment for Israel and believe everything we are said, I am ok with that. Hope you are ok with other people having other opinion. In any case it is curious that you consider it acceptable for Turkey, or am I understanding wrong?

Heretic!

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First Two Stealth Jets to Arrive in Korea by March

By Park Ji-won

Two F-35A stealth fighter aircraft will be delivered to South Korea from the U.S. by the end of March, a military source said Sunday.

"Two F-35As out of 10, which the Air Force will receive this year, will arrive in South Korea by the end of March. They will be deployed by around April or May," a source familiar with the matter said.

The source said two aircraft will arrive every month and up to 10 stealth fighters will be handed over by the end of the year. The Air Force will possibly complete their deployment during the same time. By the end of 2018, the Air Force had taken over six F-35As for training at Arizona's Luke Air Force Base in the U.S.


More at the JUMP

https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=261946

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IMHO, The S-400 situation with Turkey really has little to do with the F-35. There are advantages and disadvantages for both sides in getting these two combat systems in close proximity for signint purposes. The real reason is simple math. Russia's defense spending amounts to around $70 billion per year. Their arms exports amounts to around $14 billion per year, or about 20% of domestic spending. That is a pretty high percentage. So Washington thinks that they can do some serious damage to future R&D by cutting a lot of that off. And they are mad because they feel the battle with Turkey is one that they should have won easily. Trouble is, if your requirement is cutting edge technology, long range, ABM capability, and shoot and scoot ready, then there is nothing else on the market. (US and NATO air defenses aren't that mobile, simply because it is unlikely to ever lose air superiority.)

In the end, both sides are going to do their utmost to spy on each other with these platforms. Because Turkey is likely going though with the S-400. And it does make sense for them to do so!

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@XB-70:

That makes sense, but why to threaten specifically with the F-35? Turkey is very vulnerable to US cutting military cooperation in general so it would be easy to force them in other ways. And at the same time, F-35's supply chain and schedule counts on Turkey's participation so there is in fact a vulnerability of the program towards them. There is still something missing...

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why to threaten specifically with the F-35?

Because it is easier to threaten Turkey with what they want but can't get from somewhere else.