funny when you think about it.. a guy comes here saying switzerland is tiny and any fighter would suffice, yet, in the last trials, a Gripen managed to be bingo fuel before succeeding to intercept a simulated liner over swiss territory.. go figure... I guess the pilot should've passed on keypub boards, prior to the test, so that some posters explain to him that any fighter would do it :highly_amused:
perhaps you should change your name from Too Cool to Too Triggered ROFLMAO
By: BlackArcher
- 28th June 2019 at 08:51Permalink
Gripen C and Gripen E are different jets with different ranges. Especially the advertised ranges for the Gripen E (even Gripen C for that matter) should suffice for the Swiss boundaries.
Unless Saab has been using clever PR to advertise some range that doesn’t match up in real world scenarios.
Gripen C and Gripen E are different jets with different ranges. Especially the advertised ranges for the Gripen E (even Gripen C for that matter) should suffice for the Swiss boundaries.
Unless Saab has been using clever PR to advertise some range that doesn’t match up in real world scenarios.
yes, very correct African American Archer! (Triple A title!)
the problem is the Swiss dont wanna evaluate the E.
now, to placate the very vocal Francophones here...
I think had Switzerland went Mirage 2000 from the beginning, instead of F-18s and F-5s and whatever.. we probably wouldnt be in this mess
the 2000s would last well into the time more 5th gen options are available. or 6th gen..wahtever that is.
By: BlackArcher
- 22nd August 2019 at 23:57Permalink
yes, very correct African American Archer! (Triple A title!)
the problem is the Swiss dont wanna evaluate the E.
now, to placate the very vocal Francophones here...
I think had Switzerland went Mirage 2000 from the beginning, instead of F-18s and F-5s and whatever.. we probably wouldnt be in this mess
the 2000s would last well into the time more 5th gen options are available. or 6th gen..wahtever that is.
Just so you know- "Black Archers" is the name of a squadron of the Indian Air Force that currently flies MiG-29 Fulcrums. Nothing related to "African Americans". I know you don't mean to be racist but this could be interpreted that way by some.
Yeah that was good. Gripen too, excellent, and both well received by the crowd.
EF not so much. But that was to be expected with the German AF flying the demo rather than a company pilot.
Dassault also had the best sales department on the ground. And by best I mean the prettiest :D
Boeing didn't seem to have a stand accessible to the general visitor, that or I have not seen it. No demo or mock-up aswell. But sponsoring the VIP-tent - might actually be the smarter move.
F-35 mock-up was present. Surprisingly compact jet also in real life. But also as fat as expected.
Got some nice pamphlets from LM/P&W, Dassault and Saab.
The LM ones seem to be put together in haste, contain some errors.
Saab quotes the well known cost per flight hour study from Janes. Well, it doesn't matter now anyway.
The star of the show was not one of the three current eurocanards, but the Sk 37. :eagerness:
By: Sanem
- 25th August 2019 at 14:30Permalink- Edited 25th August 2019 at 14:35
There is a misunderstanding of the complexity of the infrastructure required to effectively operate a fleet of UAVs.
The bottom line is there is no cost saving for the Swiss by switching to UAVs. For simple, routine tasks like air policing, it is more cost effective to buy more manned airplanes.
Not really, the latest UAVs are essentially not much harder or more expensive to field or operate than SAMs or cruise missiles. Switzerland fields plenty such units with minimal effort.
The Houtis proved this just last week, attacking a Saudi oil field. Before that they effectively used Iranian UAVs to take out radars, airports, ships...
If the Houtis with their limited resources can effectively field second rate Iranian drones against a $70 billion budget military supported by the Pentagon, then I'm sure the Swiss can figure it out for a reasonable cost.
The UTAP-22 has the performance and payload to do air policing, and has already flown in formation with a Harrier, proving it can do so safely.
At 2% the cost of any of the manned alternatives considered, it'll soon be evident that it's the only game in town.
Edit: Kratos is said to deliver the first 20 to 40 of their product within 6 to 12 months.
By: TooCool_12f
- 27th August 2019 at 14:01Permalink
Gripen C and Gripen E are different jets with different ranges. Especially the advertised ranges for the Gripen E (even Gripen C for that matter) should suffice for the Swiss boundaries.
Unless Saab has been using clever PR to advertise some range that doesn’t match up in real world scenarios.
problem is that ferrying range has little to do with operational requirements.. if you have to catch a liner cruising at high subsonic Mach @35000ft, you have to go full afterburner on runway and up to the interception point... Gripen could not... and that is a fact proven during trials
By: Spitfire9
- 27th August 2019 at 14:27Permalink
problem is that ferrying range has little to do with operational requirements.. if you have to catch a liner cruising at high subsonic Mach @35000ft, you have to go full afterburner on runway and up to the interception point... Gripen could not... and that is a fact proven during trials
You are talking about Gripen C in the last evaluation. Gripen E holds a lot more fuel internally. IIRC about 40% more. Just checked -
The aircraft’s internal fuel tanks with a combined capacity of 3.4t are approximately 40% larger than those of its former version. The increased volume is made possible by moving the landing gear from the fuselage of the aircraft out to the inner wings.
True. But Gripen E is also heavier, about 8 t vs 7 t. And it has a more powerful engine, about 10 t vs 8.2 t of thrust.
I estimate this results in an increase of 20% more flying time at full burners. Actual combat radius probably increases more than that because you only use full burners on the way to the target. May or may not be enough to pass the test mission the Swiss AF flew in 2008. But this is a moot point now.
Yes but surely they considered that when calculating the final scores. The others sent twinseaters too.
And it's not like the Swiss AF is not flying C and D Hornets, or E and F Tigers for that matter.
By: TooCool_12f
- 31st August 2019 at 21:27Permalink
The 2008 evaluation was done with a "D" not a "C", a heavier aircraft that carries a bit less fuel.
like all other contenders... obviously, nobody has allowed a swiss pilot to fly alone in their aircraft. The only one not to do it in a twin seater is the F-35 in this second competition, as there's no twin seat F-35... how the swiss will evaluate that remains to be seen
The flight testing included eight missions for each candidate, conducted with one or two fighter jets. Seven of the eight missions included given tasks. A mission could be chosen by the candidate to repeat one of the given missions or to demonstrate special features.
The aim was to check the sensors in the Swiss environment, the compatibility with the technical infrastructure of Switzerland and the degree of maturity of the fighter aircraft. In addition, noise measurements were carried out by the EMPA in Payerne and in Meiringen.
There are issues with not having twin seaters though.
With the Swiss AF not operating advanced jet trainers, going from a PC-21 turboprop directly to an F-35 seems like a big jump.
And there's the usual. No incentive flights, not only for VIPs etc., but also for staff like flight doctors. Or desk jockeys wanting to keep their licence. LM should develop an F-35D imho.
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 26th June 2019 at 04:34 Permalink
perhaps you should change your name from Too Cool to Too Triggered ROFLMAO
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 26th June 2019 at 14:34 Permalink
Hope their was no definitive damge (the mao part of roflmao)
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 27th June 2019 at 00:09 Permalink
yeah, I know, those pesky little things called facts... :highly_amused:
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 27th June 2019 at 03:37 Permalink
Indeed we know the fact Switzerland is a small country was very pesky for you, seeing how triggered you got lol
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 27th June 2019 at 09:04 Permalink
still it was too big for the gripen... :p
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 27th June 2019 at 13:02 Permalink
okay, but am i too big for you?
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 28th June 2019 at 08:51 Permalink
Gripen C and Gripen E are different jets with different ranges. Especially the advertised ranges for the Gripen E (even Gripen C for that matter) should suffice for the Swiss boundaries.
Unless Saab has been using clever PR to advertise some range that doesn’t match up in real world scenarios.
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 28th June 2019 at 09:27 Permalink
yes, very correct African American Archer! (Triple A title!)
the problem is the Swiss dont wanna evaluate the E.
now, to placate the very vocal Francophones here...
I think had Switzerland went Mirage 2000 from the beginning, instead of F-18s and F-5s and whatever.. we probably wouldnt be in this mess
the 2000s would last well into the time more 5th gen options are available. or 6th gen..wahtever that is.
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 21st August 2019 at 10:01 Permalink - Edited 21st August 2019 at 10:01
Nice Rafale Demo this year in switzerland. Enjoy!
https://youtu.be/PY3dEeDRGgo
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 22nd August 2019 at 23:57 Permalink
Just so you know- "Black Archers" is the name of a squadron of the Indian Air Force that currently flies MiG-29 Fulcrums. Nothing related to "African Americans". I know you don't mean to be racist but this could be interpreted that way by some.
Posts: 2,271
By: eagle - 23rd August 2019 at 19:53 Permalink
Yeah that was good. Gripen too, excellent, and both well received by the crowd.
EF not so much. But that was to be expected with the German AF flying the demo rather than a company pilot.
Dassault also had the best sales department on the ground. And by best I mean the prettiest :D
Boeing didn't seem to have a stand accessible to the general visitor, that or I have not seen it. No demo or mock-up aswell. But sponsoring the VIP-tent - might actually be the smarter move.
F-35 mock-up was present. Surprisingly compact jet also in real life. But also as fat as expected.
Got some nice pamphlets from LM/P&W, Dassault and Saab.
The LM ones seem to be put together in haste, contain some errors.
Saab quotes the well known cost per flight hour study from Janes. Well, it doesn't matter now anyway.
The star of the show was not one of the three current eurocanards, but the Sk 37. :eagerness:
Posts: 593
By: Sanem - 25th August 2019 at 14:30 Permalink - Edited 25th August 2019 at 14:35
Not really, the latest UAVs are essentially not much harder or more expensive to field or operate than SAMs or cruise missiles. Switzerland fields plenty such units with minimal effort.
The Houtis proved this just last week, attacking a Saudi oil field. Before that they effectively used Iranian UAVs to take out radars, airports, ships...
If the Houtis with their limited resources can effectively field second rate Iranian drones against a $70 billion budget military supported by the Pentagon, then I'm sure the Swiss can figure it out for a reasonable cost.
The UTAP-22 has the performance and payload to do air policing, and has already flown in formation with a Harrier, proving it can do so safely.
At 2% the cost of any of the manned alternatives considered, it'll soon be evident that it's the only game in town.
Edit: Kratos is said to deliver the first 20 to 40 of their product within 6 to 12 months.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 27th August 2019 at 14:01 Permalink
problem is that ferrying range has little to do with operational requirements.. if you have to catch a liner cruising at high subsonic Mach @35000ft, you have to go full afterburner on runway and up to the interception point... Gripen could not... and that is a fact proven during trials
Posts: 2,626
By: Spitfire9 - 27th August 2019 at 14:27 Permalink
You are talking about Gripen C in the last evaluation. Gripen E holds a lot more fuel internally. IIRC about 40% more. Just checked -
Source: https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/gripen-e-multirole-fighter-aircraft/
Posts: 2,271
By: eagle - 27th August 2019 at 19:13 Permalink
True. But Gripen E is also heavier, about 8 t vs 7 t. And it has a more powerful engine, about 10 t vs 8.2 t of thrust.
I estimate this results in an increase of 20% more flying time at full burners. Actual combat radius probably increases more than that because you only use full burners on the way to the target. May or may not be enough to pass the test mission the Swiss AF flew in 2008. But this is a moot point now.
Posts: 3,765
By: Sintra - 30th August 2019 at 17:55 Permalink - Edited 30th August 2019 at 17:57
The 2008 evaluation was done with a "D" not a "C", a heavier aircraft that carries a bit less fuel.
Posts: 2,271
By: eagle - 30th August 2019 at 23:58 Permalink
Yes but surely they considered that when calculating the final scores. The others sent twinseaters too.
And it's not like the Swiss AF is not flying C and D Hornets, or E and F Tigers for that matter.
Posts: 3,259
By: TooCool_12f - 31st August 2019 at 21:27 Permalink
like all other contenders... obviously, nobody has allowed a swiss pilot to fly alone in their aircraft. The only one not to do it in a twin seater is the F-35 in this second competition, as there's no twin seat F-35... how the swiss will evaluate that remains to be seen
Posts: 2,271
By: eagle - 1st September 2019 at 02:56 Permalink
Collecting the necessary data is not a problem with single seaters. The 7+1 missions were basically check flights to confirm what has been learnt form docs and in the simulator.
From https://www.vbs.admin.ch/content/vbs-internet/de/die-schweizer-armee/sicherheit-im-luftraum.detail.nsb.html/75494.html run through google translator:
There are issues with not having twin seaters though.
With the Swiss AF not operating advanced jet trainers, going from a PC-21 turboprop directly to an F-35 seems like a big jump.
And there's the usual. No incentive flights, not only for VIPs etc., but also for staff like flight doctors. Or desk jockeys wanting to keep their licence. LM should develop an F-35D imho.