Swiss Air Force combat fighter competition 2.0

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Member for

11 years 6 months

Posts: 72

I honestly think it is a really open context.
SH provides continuity with the F18s that they already have at a really competitive price.
Eurofighter is probably the best performance wise particularly focusing on QRA, and an aircraft present in several neighbors (Germany, Italy, Austria).
Rafale won the previous context when regarding technical aspects.
F35 is the new western standard.
Gripen E won the previous context and keeps offering all the needed aspects at a reasonable price. plus an extra in the ease of use which is really convenient in this case.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905

20y after hard procurement all across the military spectrum to cut time from sensor to shooter, we are greeted by Opit's conclusions. Ahhh to live a live meaningful...

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 893

20y after hard procurement all across the military spectrum to cut time from sensor to shooter, we are greeted by Opit's conclusions. Ahhh to live a live meaningful...

Go get a brain. The devil is in the details. The keyword here is sensor.

Member for

12 years 1 month

Posts: 4,168

What is "basic" ISR?

How do you differentiate intelligence, surveillance, and reconnaissance from the reconnaissance part? This does not makes sense.

Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905

Switzerland asked for 60% offsets going to their BIT

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ir-773068.html

Good luck to F-35...

This has been discussed already when the RFI was out: if I remind correctly, maintenance and fleet sustainement can be part of the offset calculation which would make in 20year (my mem only) quite an easy sum to balance... This is very different from the MMRCA in India

Correction: it's 30years and this was even stated at the bottom of the article:

la Suisse évaluera la participation industrielle directe ou programme industriel (étendue et qualité). Surtout, elle prendra en compte aussi bien les coûts d'acquisition des systèmes que les coûts d'exploitation pendant une durée d'utilisation de 30 ans. En revanche, elle ne prendra pas en compte les coûts des éventuels programmes de modernisation ou de maintien de la performance ainsi que les frais de mise hors service.
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Switzerland will evaluate direct industrial participation or industrial program (scope and quality). Above all, it will take into account both system acquisition costs and operating costs over a 30-year period of use. On the other hand, it will not take into account the costs of any modernization or performance maintenance programs as well as the costs of decommissioning.

:rolleyes:

Member for

8 years 3 months

Posts: 1,081


Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.

A dedicated recon pod will have bigger aperture than F-35's EOTS and DAS, and possibly in wider spectrum as well. On the otherhand, F-35 can get much closer to the threat bubble than a Rafale or Gripen carrying 1.5 tons pod, so while its optical sensor might not see as far as a dedicated pod, it can get closer to see.
Furthermore, i don't think F-35 recon mode is limited with optical sensor, it is likely that APG-81 and ASQ-239 are used as well

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 3,106

Simply put, F-35 - or a targeting pod with basic ISR capabilities- has nothing such as a sophisticated and dedicated 1.5T reccepod can give (be it focal, number of sensors etc.). "basi isr" is also known as NT (non traditional) ISR.

Having to carry a 1.5 ton recce pod to possibly provide slightly superior ISR capability to the F-35’s incorporated sensors is a disadvantage, not an advance. “Big” SAR is coming to the F-35 in block 4.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 3,106

Switzerland asked for 60% offsets going to their BIT

https://www.latribune.fr/entreprises...ir-773068.html

Good luck to F-35...

Why “good luck”? Are you still confused on the difference between partner nation agreement not allowing offsets and an FMS customer? Hint.. you made the same mistake a few days ago with Belgium. Read what people write, especially if they actually know information about the F-35 program.

edit-for the record, I don’t think the F-35 “wins” the Swiss contract. It’s overkill for their needs, and certainly not the cheapest to operate. Still doesn’t excuse sloppy unsubstantiated posts speculating ISR rating in the competition, or an “offset” canard. Plenty of canards in this competition.

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905

The most annoying part of this thread for Swiss ppl might be outsider judging their defense needs and their aspiration for the operational capability of their Airforce just by the say of it.
Swiss defense strategy has always been to be the harder nut to crack in the lot against Warsaw pact for example. They have a conscript army very much like Israel (but men only - at least what I remember). So why will ppl prejudge of Israel absolute need for the 35 while looking down a the Swiss airforce?

Member for

13 years 5 months

Posts: 593

Switzerland should include the UTAP-22 in the competition, it would be way more fitting for their needs, being cheap and compact enough to launch from pretty much any base without the need for a landing strip. Give it a pair of Sidewinders (or if you can get something in R-60 class you can hang one on each wingtip) and a gunpod, and a handful of these could intercept any intruder in a matter of minutes 24/7, like reusable SAMs. It can also do ISR and ground attack to great effect, like reusable cruise missiles. At $2 million each Switzerland could field a hundred for the price of a few manned jets.

Edit: I forgot Switzerland has the Stinger, they can hang a few of those off the UTAP-22, being small and light yet giving it enough punch to be taken seriously.

Member for

12 years 1 month

Posts: 4,168

This has been discussed already when the RFI was out: if I remind correctly, maintenance and fleet sustainement can be part of the offset calculation which would make in 20year (my mem only) quite an easy sum to balance... This is very different from the MMRCA in India

Correction: it's 30years and this was even stated at the bottom of the article:

:rolleyes:

First off all you can use as many smileys as you want, it will not give anymore weight to your statements.
Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?

Pour le prochain avion de combat, le groupe suisse sera désigné comme centre de compétences pour le matériel (CCM) au lancement du projet. Il réalisera les tâches, non dévolues à l'armée suisse, concernant le suivi technique du système, la gestion du matériel entre la Suisse et l'étranger et la maintenance des avions

It is already in the RFP that RUAG iwill be responsible tof fleet sustainment. Nothing to do with offsets.

Twisting facts as mch as you want will not change them.

Oh btw, did you notice that 20% of the offsets can be accounted as anterior to the RFP (RUAG, Pilatus...)

Member for

14 years 3 months

Posts: 3,259

Switzerland should include the UTAP-22 in the competition, it would be way more fitting for their needs, being cheap and compact enough to launch from pretty much any base without the need for a landing strip. Give it a pair of Sidewinders (or if you can get something in R-60 class you can hang one on each wingtip) and a gunpod, and a handful of these could intercept any intruder in a matter of minutes 24/7, like reusable SAMs. It can also do ISR and ground attack to great effect, like reusable cruise missiles. At $2 million each Switzerland could field a hundred for the price of a few manned jets.

Edit: I forgot Switzerland has the Stinger, they can hang a few of those off the UTAP-22, being small and light yet giving it enough punch to be taken seriously.

okay but.. how do you intercept a liner or a light aircraft that has communications problem, or something along the lines of "I need help!", hummm? ^^

air policing and assistance is 99% of operational job of every european nations air force...

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905

First off all you can use as many smileys as you want, it will not give anymore weight to your statements.
Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?

It is already in the RFP that RUAG iwill be responsible tof fleet sustainment. Nothing to do with offsets.

Twisting facts as mch as you want will not change them.

Oh btw, did you notice that 20% of the offsets can be accounted as anterior to the RFP (RUAG, Pilatus...)

I don't know what new phobia of you is this with Smileys (they are round faces much like a pumpkin) But for the 20%, US SOCOM bought a fair number of Pilatus (U-28) that should easily account for the 20% .

Member for

12 years 1 month

Posts: 4,168

Smiley's are just kiddish. That's all. U-28 accounting for 20% of the value of fighters? Despairing...

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,271

The most annoying part of this thread for Swiss ppl might be outsider judging their defense needs and their aspiration for the operational capability of their Airforce just by the say of it.
Swiss defense strategy has always been to be the harder nut to crack in the lot against Warsaw pact for example. They have a conscript army very much like Israel (but men only - at least what I remember). So why will ppl prejudge of Israel absolute need for the 35 while looking down a the Swiss airforce?

Israel though operates a lot more than 40 fighters. And while both have conscription armies (yes men only in Switzerland), Israeli army is fully equipped. Swiss army is a lot of folklore, some might say this has always been the case. I mean Hunters in the 90s? Would not have been nice against WP armies.

But still the need for new fighters is there. F-35 or not doesn't really matter imho. Provided operating cost are comparable.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,271


Second the total amount is 100% and who told you in switzerland th fleet sustainlment could be part of offset calculation in switzerland? Your faith?

No it has been reduced to 60% total - 20% direct and 40% indirect offsets. https://www.vbs.admin.ch/fr/defense/protection-espace-aerien.html

More important, the SAM procurement has been split from the fighter deal. It's now CHF 6 billion for the new jets, though some have already said this isn't enough, demanding the budget to be raised to 7 billion.
However, since Belgium pays EUR 4 billion for their 34 F-35 aircraft, which is about CHF 4.5 billion, I'd say 6 billion is good enough for 40 jets.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 2,271


Furthermore, i don't think F-35 recon mode is limited with optical sensor, it is likely that APG-81 and ASQ-239 are used as well

Sure. But it's not like Rafale/Gripen/SH have to choose between optical sensors and radar/EW-suite. Those are always there with the pod being an option F-35 and EF can't offer.

It's nice btw. to see the Rafales arriving with all the gizmos. I didn't expect Sniper though.

EF on the other hand is out imho, for political reasons. I've said it before, shouldn't have let ze Germans run the business.

Here's a longer video of Rafales at Payerne:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKwcxJFqNJw

Member for

15 years 8 months

Posts: 2,626

EF on the other hand is out imho, for political reasons. I've said it before, shouldn't have let ze Germans run the business.

Unaware of the political angle. Would you be able to inform me better, please?

Member for

12 years 3 months

Posts: 5,905

No it has been reduced to 60% total - 20% direct and 40% indirect offsets. https://www.vbs.admin.ch/fr/defense/...ce-aerien.html

More important, the SAM procurement has been split from the fighter deal. It's now CHF 6 billion for the new jets, though some have already said this isn't enough, demanding the budget to be raised to 7 billion.
However, since Belgium pays EUR 4 billion for their 34 F-35 aircraft, which is about CHF 4.5 billion, I'd say 6 billion is good enough for 40 jets.

Thanks for clearing that.

Hallow: 20% of 6billion CHF is 20MCHF ~=20M$ per plane for 60 plane.