Let's Talk Logistics.

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Member for

19 years

Posts: 87

So everyone seems to be pretty well versed in all things "military" on this forum. There are alot of good questions and even better polls, so I'm really surprised nobody has asked this question. What are the economic costs of purchasing 4th and 5th generation fighters these days. Alot of people talk about israel, serbia, and india upgrading their air forces or lack there-of...but what are the costs of purchasing a su-30mk or f-16d/e???? Just wondering if anyone had an idea???

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Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 600

Interesting topic..

NOT Logistics.. but a rough idea of understanding the things involved during the maintenance .. etc.. can give a statup on the logistics etc.. For reference and coz of availaibility I am bringing in Mig-29 data...

http://www.sci.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2b.htm

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 5,396

Off the top of my head

For modern US airplanes support cost includes the maintenance cost and spares needed to keep the airplane in ready condition.

While military labor hours are cheap at $27.50 per hour, there are lots of maintenance hours (MMHs) accumulated to keep a jet flying. For F-22 and F-35, I'd guess there are 6 to 6.5 corrective maintenance man hours per flight hour (MMH/FH) and another 4 to 5 support MMH/FH (fueling, phase inspections, weapons loading). For F-15/16/117 the MMH/FH numbers are about 12 & 4. For B-2 and B-1 the MMH/FH numbers are 25 & 10. To keep the maintenance cost reasonable and reduce elapsed maintenance time, manufacturers are incorporating better diagnostics and accessibility.

Civilian labor for depot overhauls is more expensive at $85 per hour and labor hours expended during overhaul can easily reach 20K-40K hours if lots of service bulletins have to be incorporated. Fortunately, overhauls don't occur often, maybe once every 8-9 years.

The cost of the spares and repair parts pipeline is also large. Repairs of small parts like valves and pumps start at $3K, complex/large mechanical equipment like APUs, and air cycle machines start at $8K, avonics start at $5K per box. Lots of components like relays, switches and contactors, costing a couple hundred $s each, are not cost effective to repair and are thrown away.

Of course, all spares, lubricants, support and operations equipment for a 30 day deployment have to fit on a few 463L pallets for transport and only a few C-17 loads are allowed for each squadron deployed.

Operational costs includes POL. Current USG bulk purchase rates for JP-8 is about $1.35 per gallon.

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 4,674

So everyone seems to be pretty well versed in all things "military" on this forum. There are alot of good questions and even better polls, so I'm really surprised nobody has asked this question. What are the economic costs of purchasing 4th and 5th generation fighters these days. Alot of people talk about israel, serbia, and india upgrading their air forces or lack there-of...but what are the costs of purchasing a su-30mk or f-16d/e???? Just wondering if anyone had an idea???

That has nothing to do with logistics or supply chain management. It is the question about the national economic repercussion of defence activities.

In reality a large military exists almost always outside the monetary economy. That's called "Kriegswirtschaft", or war eceonomy. Is it a coincidence that the U.S. deficit is almost exactly the amount of the (official) defence budget? And for a state like the U.S., does it really matter? Most of the stuff is purchased internal, most of the money stays in the system. And what the real social-economic costs of e.g. the F/A-22 are? Does it matter? For to sustain their empire the U.S. need such machines, so the alternative is non-existent. The armed forces of the U.S. are the enabler for economical expansion and political influence. In the case of Israel the armed forces are the enabler for the state to live, so they are equally justified (and their industrial-military complex brings return from civil projects).

But if you are a smaller state with limited or no strategic interests the picture is a different one. Armed forces only cost money, they usually bring no return on investment. Well, you can say it's a tool to discipline your people, or to advance the manlyness of your male population; you can also use it to grow some engineers. But the only case in which armed forces bring return on investment is a successful offensive war. (In a successful defensive war they are worth thier money or economical speaking their interest equals inflation, but bring no return). Only when you conquer a foreign economy your investment in armed forces brings a return (see the oil-wars in the Gulf region).

For the said state without expansive ambitions a new fighter
costs the taxpayer:
- the airplane
- ground support equipment
- spares, rotables, replaceables
- interests on credits used to purchase all that
- munition
- fuel
- a highly qualified manpower for flying and maintaining (incl schooling and training) that you could otherwise use in the civil economy
- if you use conscripts, you have them out of the economy for a year of two, but on the other hand that can be cheaper than paying them the dole
- military ground infrastructure (the land whereupon the airbase is located, the airbase itself, streets and railroads thither, C3 stuff)
- civil ground infrastructure and supplies (water, waste, ...)
- support units (infantry, base security) with their own range of needs
- a drop in the value of surrounding land, since few want to live along a noisy airbase
- secondary effects, like the loss of compound interest
it brings:
- security or warfighting capabilities (hopefully), otherwise something for parades and patriotic speeches; maybe the ticket to some international circus
- people on and around the bases that consume and stimulate local economy
- local housing for the relatives of the soldiers that need to be built and maintained
- work for local civil suppliers and civil engineering firms
- sometimes secondary hitech industry
- a whole range or civil services, like gas stations, burger joints, bordellos, work for narcotics and liquor and porn dealers, moving companies
- an additional number of conservative voters and civil servants
- constant work for divorce lawyers
- a large local NRA membership quota
- a certain amount of taxes from the above for local bodies or the state
In short, you have a whole town living off the taxpayer's money!

PS: Your armed forces will always costs what you allocate them, so the detailed numbers in USD or EUR play no role I think.

Member for

20 years 5 months

Posts: 277

Well studied and insightful post Distiller.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 717


- a highly qualified manpower for flying and maintaining (incl schooling and training) that you could otherwise use in the civil economy

don't forget the manpower to support the flying and maintaining. and the recruitment costs to get the desired personnel.