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By: 26th September 2000 at 01:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
I found another PAF article in World Air Power. Volume 10 features a detailed account of the PAF's border skirmishes in recent times (well up until the Fall of 1992, the date of Vol. 10), and has a detailed account of all the F-16 kills. There's apparently another up-and-coming PAF pilot, Flt. Lt. Khalid Mahmood, who destroyed 2 MiG-23's in a single sortie on 12 September 1988, getting his third kill (Su-22) on 3 November of the same year. And yes, the article does mention Alam's 1965 5-kill sortie.
By: 26th September 2000 at 04:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
The PAF AIM-7 is an old urban legend, if I may call it that. What I'm pretty certain of is that they do have some, which were probably acquired with the initial lot of F-16s- most likely AIM-7Fs. The issues I see are:
1) With subsequent US sanctions, their stockpile is old, and likely not very large to begin with. To minimze wear and tear, they probably don't carry them too much.
2) More fundamentally, are their F-16s AIM-7 capable at all? If at all, the AIM-7s would have been acquired keeping in mind likely future F-16 purchases and upgrades. These did not happen due to sanctions, and the F-16s the PAF has are vanilla F-16As.
By: 26th September 2000 at 12:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
PAF F-16 now have many kills for not a single enemy loss. They are combat proven and piloted by great pilots- in a war, they will be an unbeatable force. The fact that F-16 is infitely superieor to Mig-29 is already established in Serbia and Iraq. The IAF will do well to learn the harsh lessons of those conflicts.
By: 26th September 2000 at 12:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
>PAF F-16 now have many kills
>for "not a single enemy
>loss."
Now I believe you.LOL.It's a new theory.....
By: 26th September 2000 at 13:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
The MIG-29 it´s not a bad aircraft... we can say that the F-16´s is better .. but look: in today´s world is not aircraft but the weapon ( and pilot )... so the AIM-120 is the responsible for those kills in allied force and some in Iraq..
Best regards
Richa, Portugal
By: 26th September 2000 at 14:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
From the F-16.net
"Modifications & Armament
The Pakistan Air Force currently has the Block 15S F-16A/B model in operation, which has an upgraded APG-66 radar that brings it close to the MLU (Mid-life Update) radar technology. The main advantage is the ability to use the AIM-7 Sparrow and AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles if they were ever to be released to the PAF. Furthermore, the radar is capable of sorting out tight formations of aircraft and has a 15%-20% range increase over previous models. Currently, Pakistani F-16s typically carry two all-aspect AIM-9L Sidewinders on the wing tip rails along with a pair of AIM-9P-4s on the outermost underwing racks, while the Matra Magic 2 (French counterpart of the Sidewinder) can be carried as well. They have an important strike role, being fitted with the French-built Thompson-CSF ATLIS laser designation pod and being capable to deliver Paveway laser-guided bombs. The ATLIS pod was first fitted to Pakistani F-16s in January 1986, thus making the F-16 the first non-European aircraft to be qualified for this pod. Pakistani F-16s are also capable of firing the French AS-30 laser guided missile."
And as I know the AIM-7 were released to Pakistan under the Brown amendment. So this may mean that Pakistani F-16s are capable of using the AIM-7 Sparrow, although I have never seen a picture of a PAF F-16 with a Sparrow missile.
By: 26th September 2000 at 15:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
No one had ever seen a picture of a PAF F-16 with an LGB until it appeared in a picture book in the 80s!!!!
Until then many doubted that PAF F-16s had LGB capability but they had kept the ATLIS Pod and LGB aqquisition quiet for 5 Years!!!!!!!!!
Could it be the same with BVR capability!?
Certainly our knowledgable friend, Usman, could shed some light on this!?
SO
By: 26th September 2000 at 20:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
Egypt and Iran have AIM-7's, could either of them supplied the missiles to Pakistan? At least the first batch of Pakistani F-16s were delivered lacking BVR AAM capability. The second batch may very well have the capability, but the existance of the weapons still remains in doubt...
By: 27th September 2000 at 12:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
There is a lot of confusion regarding what was released under the Brown amendment. For example not just regarding AIM-7s but also Cobra kits, harpoon missiles etc. But I do believe that the Sparrows were given to Pakistan under the Brown amendment, but what I am not sure is about the numbers and if the US technicians also helped Pakistan “fine-tune” the APG-66 radar for use with the released Sparrows. But I am also sure that the PAF technicians themselves are pretty much capable of doing this at Kamra Avionics and Radar Factory (KARF).
There is also another really interesting piece of news I heard about couple of months ago that a “short-range Air-to-Air missile is being developed at KARF with Chinese assistance” Although I have no information regarding its specifications or date of trials—entry into service.
By: 29th September 2000 at 18:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
They might be working with South African suppliers. South Africa has delivered frequency hopping equipment to the PAF and may well be supplying missiles as well.
By: 29th September 2000 at 21:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
Everyone on the PakDef.com Forum says that Pakistan broke the source codes on the F-16 to carry and launch the AIM-7. Pakistan received the AIM-7 missiles with the first batch of F-16s (this has been confirmed by the U.S.A). The U.S.A was suppose to make the F-16 capable of firing the missile but that was scrapped after the U.S.A found out about Pakistan's Nuclear program. I guess it is possible to break the F-16 source codes but I don't find it probable. If Pakistan has not broken the source codes then I think Pakistan should turn their inventory of AIM-7 into a land based S.A.M system like the Italian Aspide.
J33Nelson
By: 30th September 2000 at 05:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
The PAF had 'lent' an F-16 to China a fews years ago...maybe they were able to lend some expertise in such matters.
By: 5th October 2000 at 04:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
C'mon Joel,
At PakDef we talked about Pakistani techs. altering the (avionics) source code in F-16s to carry nuclear weapons not the Sparrows.
Khurram
By: 5th October 2000 at 04:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
-RE: Pakistani F-16 fleet
I just wrote what I was told on Pakdef. The gentleman that told me that Pakistan broke the F-16 source codes to fire the AIM-7 said he got his information from a relative that is in the PAF. Everyone else in that thread agreed with him so I thought it was a possibility.
J33Nelson
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 26th September 2000 at 00:12
Here's my take on the Pakistani F-16 fleet. I checked World Air Power Journal Volumes 5, 13, and 24. Volume 5 details the F-16, Volume 13 the Pakistani Air Force, and the Volume 24 foreign F-16 operators. AIM-7 capability is not mentioned anywhere, and WAPJ has been, in my experience, quite thourough in describing the weapons available to aircraft in specific air forces. They did mention the R.530 arming PAF Mirages, for example. I did discover that PAF F-16's were fitted with ALR-69 RHAW gear, not the ALR-46 that the US wanted to sell them, being less capable and therefore less sensitive. Kudos to the PAF for sticking it out and getting what they wanted in that respect.
As far as PAF F-16 kills, WAPJ credits them with the downing of 3 Su-22's, an Su-25, 2 MiG-23's, and an An-26. One of the aircraft also managed to down his own wingman in a dogfight. The previous aircraft are either Russian or Afghan. The 21 November 1988 An-26 kill is interesting because it is listed as the first time a PAF pilot was given the authority to down a non-combat aircraft. Not one PAF F-16 is listed as having been downed by an enemy aircraft.
All of these kills were either AIM-9L or 20mm kills, leading me to still believe that there really are no AIM-7s in Pakistan.
PAF F-16 units are listed as being the 9 "Griffins", 11 "Arrows", and 14 "Shaheens" aircraft.
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