Best aircraft, but more specific...

Read the forum code of contact

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

In response (of sorts) to Merlin's "Best aircraft" posts, here's my list...

Best looking: Tupolev Tu-144D

Worst Looking: Avro Guppy/Belouga/whatever its called. The one that transports aircraft/rocket parts and is bulged and just plain ugly.

Best idea: HMS. Easily the edge in a dogfight between two pilots of equal ability, just downright unfair if in the hands of a superior flyer.

Worst idea: JSF. Enough said on this pathetic money sump already.

Most capable fighter: Rafale or F-16C/D Block 50/52//60. True multi-role capability, arguably more developed than Eurofighter.

Most capable bomber: Tu-160. Recieving upgrades, will begin using conventional weapons, great range/payload performance, and man, you should hear the Guard B-1B pilots here bitch about the Bone's range!

Most capable naval aircraft: F-14D. LANTIRN+AIM-54? Nuff said.

Best airshow performer: Flanker. How many NATO analysts do you think needed new pants after the first Pugachev Cobra display at Paris in '89?

Most overrated aircraft: F-15. Bomb truck, air defence fighter, and oh yeah enormous radar target. Not a bad aircraft by any means, just last year's technology.

Most underrated aircraft: B-2. Bitch about the cost, but a fleet of these with JDAMs or other PGM's could replace the F-15E/F-117 fleet, and do it with comparatively fewer numbers thanks to large bomb load.
Why is it still around?: B-52. Meet the SAM sump. Cruise missiles can be shot from other far more survivable platforms. Why this aircraft is still around is beyond me. Expecting it to perform in combat is taking an unnecessary risk with the lives of its crew.

Comments?

Original post

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 258

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

Yeah I agree w/ almost all that. But still i like the stealth fighters and there is not much wrong with the JSF. However you didnt even talk about the F-22. Why is this? Thanks later.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

F-22 is a great pure interceptor/fighter, but lacks a long-range AAM in the class of the R-37, KS-172, or even AIM-54. Still rates as a great fighter though, just Rafale and F-16 got picked instead due to true multi-role capability. F-22's multi-role potential hasn't yet been realised.

As for the JSF...it has nowhere NEAR the capability of the F-16, AND will rely on offboard sensors such as JSTARS, AWACS...how will it be a viable aircraft for a NATO nation lacking some or all of these systems?

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 258

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

That is why it is called JSF. I agree that both the F-22 and JSF lack due to the stealth making them slower then they could of been and need help from other aircraft but still they are good. The F-16 has only one engine making it very slow while the F-15 is fast. I still prefer the F-15 for this reason. However the JSF and F-22 will work well if other aircraft are in the air to help it. But still the stealth is becoming more useless and expensive everyday while making the airplane even more vulnerable . So I agree with you for the most part. Thanks for your opinon later.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

With a max speed of just over Mach 2, how is an F-16 slow?

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 258

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

versus the F-22 going mach 2.5 it is slow. I am not sure what the JSF speed is but it might be faster too. I agree mach 2 is well, pretty darn fast but look at some Russian fighters and there speeds. All I am saying is the F-16 is not stealth making in worse and slower then the F-22 and some Russian fighters. I agree with most of what you say SOC and beleive that you are very educated on aircraft but I simply prefer Stealth over normal aircraft. Even with stealth becoming more pointless every day due to ir. thanks later.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 7,989

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

The F-22 has a top speed of Mach 1.7 (1,170 mph). Trust me on this one. If you want fast, you should look at the F-4. It has a top speed of Mach 2.4 (1,580 mph) The F-15 is right in there at Mach 2.5 (1,650 mph) F-16's aren't slow, but they are not quite up to par with the F-4 and F-15.

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

B52 a SAM sump? He he. You wouldn't say that if you knew anything about the ECM on that bird. How many have been shotdown in the past 20 years?
How is the JSF a dumb idea? The execution might not be perfect, but the idea is great. I don't understand why so many people here bitch about it. It hasn't even flown yet! The JSF will have to contain many engineering compromises. However, in todays world of escalating defense costs, compromises are an unfortunate reality.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 12,009

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

You're right. And I still maintain that a tailless F-16XL would have made a better choice...it could use existing F-16 support equipment (JSF may be able to as well, I don't know), and I guarantee it can carry more than 2 AIM-120 and 2 JDAM. How can the JSF be expected to fill all the roles currently undertaken by the F-16?

As for the B-52, when was the last time it overflew a threat environment before the IADS had been depleted? ECM is great, but as soon as someone see's the aircraft it won't last 5 minutes. It's fine as a cruise missile truck, I'll give it that, but standoff missile launching and low-level bombing are two entirely different things.

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 724

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

The Yugoslav IADS was never fully depleted during Operation Allied Force, but the B-52H still flew mission into Yugoslavia even bombing targets around Belgrade. Political constraints and certain NATO members opposition to some targets being hit put paid to that. Daylight missions were also flown over Kosovo of which some were filmed by news crews positioned along the Kosovo/Albanian border. B-52Gs also went low-level for the first four days of Desert Storm. B-52Gs were combat damaged in Desert Storm, but none were shot down.

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

merlin,

Having one or two engines has nothing to do with speed. When the manufacturer makes the choise for 1 engine it is because it reduces costs very much, you have less maintenancehours/costs and it reduces dramatically weight.

the Airforce that chooses one-engined fighters knows this and takes the risk of sometimes loosing an aircraft due to enginefailure.

Topspeed is totally unimportant. It is climbrate and accelarationspeed that matters.

Believe when i say that the F-22A is a farsuperior fighter compared with all other jets.

And BTW the best dogfighter in the Vietnamwar ; THE B-52 STRATOFORTRESS. Downed 2 MiGs in air to aaircombat and was never shot down by a MiG-fighter. a far more better combatrecord than the F-4 !

greeting
phantomforever (mark)

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

Lots of great arcaft you are talking about.....
But they are very expensiv.
I say that the best aircraft is the Saab JAS39 Gripen.
It is a very capable aircraft, all in one.
It can land on a small countryroad(try that with an F-16).
It is very easy to mantain.
When will the Rafael be operational?......ever?
And Eurofighter?
British Aerospace is heling Saab to sell the Gripen,why do they do that?
Best looking aircraft? The F-16.

Don`t you all agree an this?

Member for

24 years 2 months

Posts: 724

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

Swede,

"British Aerospace is helping Saab to sell the Gripen,why do they do that?"

Basically, because BAE SYSTEMS owns 35% of Saab Military Aircraft. BAE see the Gripen as an excellent aircraft that fits nicely in-between the export Hawk and the export Eurofighter Typhoon.

The building of the Gripen is truly an international undertaking.

http://www.canit.se/%7Egriffon/aviation/gripen/partners.html

"BAE Systems, which since 1998 owns 35% of Saab Military Aircraft, in 1995 together with Saab formed the joint venture company Saab-BAe Gripen AB, which will adapt, manufacture, market and support Gripen internationally. BAe was involved in the Gripen programme before that and designed the wing and made wing prototypes and will furthermore produce 45% of the export airframes. Saab Military Aircraft is responsible for the overall system including basic aircraft development and production, as well as testing and delivery.

The foreign content of Gripen is high, 60% by value comes from NATO member countries, 70% from EU members (including Sweden), so upwards 30% is US content, contributed by more than 25 companies. Non-NATO, non-EU content isn't very high, although for example Danube Aerospace in Hungary has been making parts for Gripen since 1997."

Poland has recently joined the huge international manufacturing problem. The Polish Aviation Factory Company Limited (PZL) in Mielec, Poland, has started work on its first contract to manufacture sub assemblies for the Gripen.

TJ

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

Oh, and I guess carpet bombing troops is in no way dangerous. And I guess F15s and F16s never had the "way cleared for them" too. The reality is that today, there simply is not another vehicle that can fill the role of the B52, and it can still do a pretty good job when properly supported.
The 52 has perhaps the finest ECM system on any aircraft, the AN/ALQ 172 V(2) deception jammer. Whether someone "sees" this plane or not, if they are to engage it with radar guided SAMs, it certainly won't be a turkey shoot. However, IR is a different matter. But as long as the fighters are cleared out, and the Buff flies at high altitude, IR weapons won't be an issue.

RE: Best aircraft, but more specific...

What in the hell are you guys talking about? The F22 slow and not lacking in some areas? The first and only aircraft to supercruise and have all-aspect stealth. And Merlin, is IR a recent invention? NO. Do you really think that IR, the first guidance system for AAMs, was ignored when the F22 was designed? And as far as speed, modern fighters simply don't fly at Mach 2.5. Ever. The "on paper" max speed is almost meaningless in the real world. By the time a Flanker is struggling to break the sound barrier, the F22 will already be at Mach 1.6 with a full load of 8 missiles!
The Rafale, Eurofighter, F16 ect, won't hold a candle to the 22. And SOC, I'm really surprised you buy into some of the garbage about the F15, F22 and JSF. Your comments sound like those of so many Europeans who populate these boards. They blast US aircraft and ignore the simple facts about their worldbeating performance. Just look at the F15. Its still the best air superiority fighter on earth. It might not be the best in every single specific area, but overall, its still considered by many to be the best. Which fighter has consistently been put on the front lines of air defense in every modern conflict NATO has been involved in. The F15. That says alot right there. Hell, they wouldn't trust the Tornado F2s to do any real important patrols during conflicts. F15s have consistently been the fighter of choice for NATO, and I won't even mention Isreal where the F15 is absolutely revered.
As far as the JSF not being nearly as effective as the F16. How do you know that? It hasn't even flown yet. Besides, the requirements dictated by the AF state that it AT LEAST meets the performance of the F16 in AA combat. I bet the performance of the JSF handily exceeds that of the F16. Its thrust to weight ratio will be outstanding in the Boeing aircraft. And the stealth, and avionics will be at least a generation ahead.
I take it SOC, that you haven't been in the air force long.
Oh, and BTW, I was in for 5 years.