By: vikasrehman
- 6th March 2019 at 12:37Permalink
I am beggining to doubt the SU-30 shoot down, why no evidence? Even if it was an F-16 that did it, surely by staying in Pak air space we were within our rights?
Also does this not leave India in a blind? IAF denied PAF entered their air space, now they claim F-16s did. It is just one wave of BS after another from these guys....
As pointed out by a number of ex AF pilots, India should be able to put more evidence on the table if they did manage to shoot down an F-16. But the same principle applies to PAF. They should be able to present the evidence for MKI shoot down, e.g. HUD, radio recordings etc. While we will keep getting fake news, I am afraid, real evidence (if any) is unlikely to be revealed anytime soon. Until then, armchair warriors can have a field day and each side can keep propagating their own story.
Pak FM naming PAF pilot who dowed 2nd IAF plane in parliament. Now this is obviously not evidence but does seem to show Pakistan now officially still backing this claim several days after the incident and to state this in parliament after such a period may indicate we have evidence. As time passes by it seems more is being revealed.
By: vikasrehman
- 6th March 2019 at 21:36Permalink
This whole saga has shown how active people's imaginations are when it comes to "inventing" evidence, the sole purpose of which is to make oneself feel better. Call it self-denial, self-deception, or whatever, but the worst thing is when a theory gets debunked, individuals move to the next one without even considering what they were saying up to that point. It is through critical analyses of mistakes that one's psyche evolves, but people do not seem to have time for that anymore. Nationalist/personal fervour seems more important than anything else. Having read through various opinions, I can almost visualise F-16s launching a horde of AMRAAMs, with Tarangs in MKI buzzing like church bells used to on a Sunday morning, counteractive measures being dished out like there is no tomorrow, and Abhinandan's Mig-21 charging into F-16s like Lancelot would have charged into his enemy ranks. This is all when I know there is hardly any evidence to support this theory and I am standing on the wrong side of the fence (so to speak). Now imagine what it would do to your psyche if you mix it up with nationalist fervour and you want it to be true. There are medical terms such as Facebook depression already in use, but I think today's digital evolution is likely to give rise to substantial mental health issues in time to come, and probably much worse.
Buran asked "Can someone confirm if amongst the Mig 21 wreckage this is the front section of R-73?"
It is.
So that means at least one R-73 was still on the pylon when the MIG came down. I haven't looked through the wreckage pictures closely to make out if the second R-73 is there as well.
Dont you worry folks and armchair pilots like me....both the Air Forces will get many more chances to try combat again...India has set a new response template and Ishaallah..it will stay that way for future response also...so please wait for more fun to follow...and BTW Cheers to all of you
Dont you worry folks and armchair pilots like me....both the Air Forces will get many more chances to try combat again...India has set a new response template and Ishaallah..it will stay that way for future response also...so please wait for more fun to follow...and BTW Cheers to all of you
As for the future, being a weaker conventional power, Pakistan will never let India have the benefit of engage in a conventional conflict only. What this incident has proven is that Pakistan is fully committed to brining Nuclear weapons into the fight as soon as possible. The swift retaliation by PAF attacking near military targets was to force India to respond in kind so the escalation ladder is quickly climbed to a point where exchange of nuclear weapons would be imminent. And that is the only thing holding India back.
As for the future, being a weaker conventional power, Pakistan will never let India have the benefit of engage in a conventional conflict only. What this incident has proven is that Pakistan is fully committed to brining Nuclear weapons into the fight as soon as possible. The swift retaliation by PAF attacking near military targets was to force India to respond in kind so the escalation ladder is quickly climbed to a point where exchange of nuclear weapons would be imminent. And that is the only thing holding India back.
India is the world's seventh largest country by land area and the second most populous. We also have islands where Pakistani missiles or Nukes cannot reach (thanks to Brits) and (albeit limited) sea based deterrence. So Trust me Pakistani Nukes will not hold India back beyond a point if Pakistani backed terror outfits continue their attacks.
In a nuclear war, India my lose half her population and all her major cities. But Pakistan will be wiped of the map and occupied and reunited with India (its not just the Chinese who have ambitions to go back to their ancient borders my friend). In the short term it may look like stupidity. But if you think like historians do, in a couple of hundred years it will be worth it.
But the fact is that it does not have to be that way. India accepts Pakistan as it is and is more or less happy with the status quo, if Pakistan wishes to change it, an increasingly assertive India (that you will see in the coming decades) will make sure its changed in a way that is favourable to us.
By: Alpha Bravo
- 7th March 2019 at 15:58Permalink
India is the world's seventh largest country by land area and the second most populous. We also have islands where Pakistani missiles or Nukes cannot reach (thanks to Brits) and (albeit limited) sea based deterrence. So Trust me Pakistani Nukes will not hold India back beyond a point if Pakistani backed terror outfits continue their attacks.
In a nuclear war, India my lose half her population and all her major cities. But Pakistan will be wiped of the map and occupied and reunited with India (its not just the Chinese who have ambitions to go back to their ancient borders my friend). In the short term it may look like stupidity. But if you think like historians do, in a couple of hundred years it will be worth it.
But the fact is that it does not have to be that way. India accepts Pakistan as it is and is more or less happy with the status quo, if Pakistan wishes to change it, an increasingly assertive India (that you will see in the coming decades) will make sure its changed in a way that is favourable to us.
Freighting mentality, reminds me of the Armageddon "end of days" type of ideology preached by the likes of ISIS.
India is the world's seventh largest country by land area and the second most populous. We also have islands where Pakistani missiles or Nukes cannot reach (thanks to Brits) and (albeit limited) sea based deterrence. So Trust me Pakistani Nukes will not hold India back beyond a point if Pakistani backed terror outfits continue their attacks.
In a nuclear war, India my lose half her population and all her major cities. But Pakistan will be wiped of the map and occupied and reunited with India (its not just the Chinese who have ambitions to go back to their ancient borders my friend). In the short term it may look like stupidity. But if you think like historians do, in a couple of hundred years it will be worth it.
But the fact is that it does not have to be that way. India accepts Pakistan as it is and is more or less happy with the status quo, if Pakistan wishes to change it, an increasingly assertive India (that you will see in the coming decades) will make sure its changed in a way that is favourable to us.
That's like strangling to death a person wearing a suicide belt while hoping he wont press the button in his last breath. It's all bluster, the moment India realises that next step is a nuclear exchange with possible use of city busters they will back down.
No amount of terrorist attacks are worth loosing either Mumbai or Delhi, regardless of what happens to the other side in retaliation.
By: vikasrehman
- 7th March 2019 at 16:55Permalink
Tut tut...
Talking about nuclear war in such casual terms. No wonder, western nations seem to have almost given up on these two countries. Perhaps the new thinking is let the two cousins batter each other out, and those remaining can be made to sit on a table, with a new plan imposed on them. Whether that takes the shape of a united India or not, will depend on how many survive in this jungle.
I dont know, at least in a post apocolyptic wasteland we may finally be able to escape the media articles claiming “The buildings had holes in them” or “He really did avoid 4 AMRAAMS then shot down an F-16”....
By: vikasrehman
- 10th March 2019 at 21:34Permalink- Edited 10th March 2019 at 23:08
Over the last week or so, we saw many a poster talking about nuclear war in a callous manner. Over the years, I have noted many of our Indian friends claiming that in a full blown nuclear exchange, Pakistan would cease to exist, but India, as a big country, will be able to sustain it better. Here is an article (for such armchair generals) analysing the effects of a "light" nuclear war between India and pakistan. I hope our armchair generals and paid guests on TV shows would remember this when talking about a nuclear war in casual manner.
Sri Ganganagar, Rajasthan: A Pakistani drone was shot down by India in Rajasthan's Sri Ganganagar district on Sunday. This is the fourth time that a Pakistani drone was intercepted by India since the air strike on a terror training camp across the Line of Control in Balakot by the Indian Air Force.
"We received information that some item came falling through the roof of a building. We have informed the Army and the BSF (Border Security Force). No injuries have been reported," said Ismail Khan, a senior police officer in Sri Ganganagar.[b]
The first one was shot down on February 26, near the Kutch region of Gujarat, by an Israeli-designed SPYDER surface-to-air missile system. Debris of the unmanned aircraft was seen at Nanghatad village in Kutch.
The second unmanned aerial vehicle or UAV was shot down near the Barmer border on March 4. It was engaged by a Sukhoi fighter jet.
The third one had intruded in the Sri Ganganagar sector of Rajasthan on March 9. The Army said that a UAV had intruded in Sri Ganganagar sector in the evening. The drone was "engaged and brought down". Villagers residing along the western border also said that they heard heavy firing at night.
"One UAV intrusion was reported in Ganganagar sector at around 7.30 pm. The drone was engaged and brought down," Colonel Sombit Ghosh, PRO, Defence Rajasthan told news agency IANS...
ISLAMABAD: The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) successfully test-fired indigenously developed extended range “smart weapon” from JF-17 multi-role fighter aircraft on Tuesday.
The experiment marked a great milestone for the country as the weapon has been developed, integrated and qualified solely through indigenous efforts of Pakistani scientists and engineers, said a statement issued by the PAF.
“The successful trial has provided JF-17 Thunder a very potent and assured day and night capability to engage variety of targets with pinpoint accuracy,” it added.
Lauding the efforts of Pakistani scientists and engineers, Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Mujahid Anwar Khan congratulated the PAF personnel on the achievement of this monumental indigenous capability.
“Pakistan is a peace loving nation but if subjected to aggression by adversary, we would respond with full force,” he was quoted by the PAF spokesperson as saying.
By: skumar7777
- 13th March 2019 at 03:37Permalink
Flame baiting but cannot resist :) Please report.
Pakistan is the nation that
denied Osama bin Laden was in its territory while he was living cozily a few hundred yards from major military establishments
denied Dawood Ibrahim was ever in Pakistan for decades
denied that Kasab (the perpetrator of the 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attacks captured alive, caught on cameras and in live witness accounts) was a Pakistani citizen
denied that any of the dead in the Kargil war belonged to its army and refused to accept the dead bodies of its Northern Light Infantry soldiers, later acknowledged by deposed dictator Musharraf
in the latest instance, denied that F16s were used, we will see how the cookie crumbles in this one.
All of the above came from the Pakistani government through official statements, not through journalists, not though third parties, not through unnamed sources.
denied Osama bin Laden was in its territory while he was living cozily a few hundred yards from major military establishments
denied Dawood Ibrahim was ever in Pakistan for decades
denied that Kasab (the perpetrator of the 26/11 Mumbai terrorist attacks captured alive, caught on cameras and in live witness accounts) was a Pakistani citizen
denied that any of the dead in the Kargil war belonged to its army and refused to accept the dead bodies of its Northern Light Infantry soldiers, later acknowledged by deposed dictator Musharraf
in the latest instance, denied that F16s were used, we will see how the cookie crumbles in this one.
All of the above came from the Pakistani government through official statements, not through journalists, not though third parties, not through unnamed sources.
Ah, That's ok. Other teenage girls go through this phase too and learn how to behave later. Hope you get through this too.
By: skumar7777
- 14th March 2019 at 14:37Permalink- Edited 14th March 2019 at 14:38
Ah, That's ok. Other teenage girls go through this phase too and learn how to behave later. Hope you get through this too.
Exactly the reason I came to this forum, to meet like minded teenage girls like you. Is that not what forums are for?
Now to the substance, with respect to the F16 shoot down in Pakistani counter strike, the only facts known are that the Indian Air Force has claimed to shoot down a F16 and has said it has electronic signatures and provided evidence of parts of an AMRAAM missile used from F16s. The Pakistani government has denied the same and the US government has not confirmed or denied it.
There is a lot of discussion on which forum where incredulity is expressed on how a Mig 21 shot down a F16, however the simple point missed is that it is not the Mig 21 of the 60s.
I am going to refer to the Balakot strikes.
The only facts known in this case are that the Indian government has claimed a successful hit, no information on number of casualties, all the bunkum is quoted from sources quoting other unnamed sources.
Pakistan (not journalists, not third parties) has refuted the strikes and has said that there was no damage.
Pakistan has denied permission to international journalists to visit the actual site after initially saying they will take them on a ground tour and then only allowing them as far as the base of the hill top.
Posts: 1,615
By: vikasrehman - 6th March 2019 at 12:37 Permalink
As pointed out by a number of ex AF pilots, India should be able to put more evidence on the table if they did manage to shoot down an F-16. But the same principle applies to PAF. They should be able to present the evidence for MKI shoot down, e.g. HUD, radio recordings etc. While we will keep getting fake news, I am afraid, real evidence (if any) is unlikely to be revealed anytime soon. Until then, armchair warriors can have a field day and each side can keep propagating their own story.
Posts: 100
By: Mags76 - 6th March 2019 at 12:52 Permalink
BIG NEWS!
Pak FM naming PAF pilot who dowed 2nd IAF plane in parliament. Now this is obviously not evidence but does seem to show Pakistan now officially still backing this claim several days after the incident and to state this in parliament after such a period may indicate we have evidence. As time passes by it seems more is being revealed.
https://www.dawn.com/news/1467991/qureshi-invites-parliamentary-leaders-to-offer-input-on-foreign-policy
Here is a news clip with a CNN interview by Pak Mil spokes person claiming second Indian pilot died and two aircraft were shot down
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/03/06/asia/pakistan-militant-groups-india-intl/index.html
No up to Pak to show supporting evidence of the second kill
Posts: 130
By: Prior Lancey - 6th March 2019 at 18:20 Permalink
Buran asked "Can someone confirm if amongst the Mig 21 wreckage this is the front section of R-73?"
It is.
Posts: 1,615
By: vikasrehman - 6th March 2019 at 21:36 Permalink
This whole saga has shown how active people's imaginations are when it comes to "inventing" evidence, the sole purpose of which is to make oneself feel better. Call it self-denial, self-deception, or whatever, but the worst thing is when a theory gets debunked, individuals move to the next one without even considering what they were saying up to that point. It is through critical analyses of mistakes that one's psyche evolves, but people do not seem to have time for that anymore. Nationalist/personal fervour seems more important than anything else. Having read through various opinions, I can almost visualise F-16s launching a horde of AMRAAMs, with Tarangs in MKI buzzing like church bells used to on a Sunday morning, counteractive measures being dished out like there is no tomorrow, and Abhinandan's Mig-21 charging into F-16s like Lancelot would have charged into his enemy ranks. This is all when I know there is hardly any evidence to support this theory and I am standing on the wrong side of the fence (so to speak). Now imagine what it would do to your psyche if you mix it up with nationalist fervour and you want it to be true. There are medical terms such as Facebook depression already in use, but I think today's digital evolution is likely to give rise to substantial mental health issues in time to come, and probably much worse.
Posts: 1,615
By: vikasrehman - 6th March 2019 at 22:01 Permalink
Read this article about lies and fake news regarding current pak-ind crisis.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/opinion/india-pakistan-news.html
Posts: 412
By: Buran - 6th March 2019 at 23:03 Permalink
So that means at least one R-73 was still on the pylon when the MIG came down. I haven't looked through the wreckage pictures closely to make out if the second R-73 is there as well.
Posts: 7
By: anni2016 - 7th March 2019 at 14:23 Permalink
Dont you worry folks and armchair pilots like me....both the Air Forces will get many more chances to try combat again...India has set a new response template and Ishaallah..it will stay that way for future response also...so please wait for more fun to follow...and BTW Cheers to all of you
Posts: 412
By: Buran - 7th March 2019 at 15:06 Permalink
As for the future, being a weaker conventional power, Pakistan will never let India have the benefit of engage in a conventional conflict only. What this incident has proven is that Pakistan is fully committed to brining Nuclear weapons into the fight as soon as possible. The swift retaliation by PAF attacking near military targets was to force India to respond in kind so the escalation ladder is quickly climbed to a point where exchange of nuclear weapons would be imminent. And that is the only thing holding India back.
Posts: 3,538
By: quadbike - 7th March 2019 at 15:49 Permalink
India is the world's seventh largest country by land area and the second most populous. We also have islands where Pakistani missiles or Nukes cannot reach (thanks to Brits) and (albeit limited) sea based deterrence. So Trust me Pakistani Nukes will not hold India back beyond a point if Pakistani backed terror outfits continue their attacks.
In a nuclear war, India my lose half her population and all her major cities. But Pakistan will be wiped of the map and occupied and reunited with India (its not just the Chinese who have ambitions to go back to their ancient borders my friend). In the short term it may look like stupidity. But if you think like historians do, in a couple of hundred years it will be worth it.
But the fact is that it does not have to be that way. India accepts Pakistan as it is and is more or less happy with the status quo, if Pakistan wishes to change it, an increasingly assertive India (that you will see in the coming decades) will make sure its changed in a way that is favourable to us.
Posts: 498
By: Alpha Bravo - 7th March 2019 at 15:58 Permalink
Freighting mentality, reminds me of the Armageddon "end of days" type of ideology preached by the likes of ISIS.
Posts: 412
By: Buran - 7th March 2019 at 16:51 Permalink
That's like strangling to death a person wearing a suicide belt while hoping he wont press the button in his last breath. It's all bluster, the moment India realises that next step is a nuclear exchange with possible use of city busters they will back down.
No amount of terrorist attacks are worth loosing either Mumbai or Delhi, regardless of what happens to the other side in retaliation.
Posts: 1,615
By: vikasrehman - 7th March 2019 at 16:55 Permalink
Tut tut...
Talking about nuclear war in such casual terms. No wonder, western nations seem to have almost given up on these two countries. Perhaps the new thinking is let the two cousins batter each other out, and those remaining can be made to sit on a table, with a new plan imposed on them. Whether that takes the shape of a united India or not, will depend on how many survive in this jungle.
Posts: 100
By: Mags76 - 7th March 2019 at 17:25 Permalink
I dont know, at least in a post apocolyptic wasteland we may finally be able to escape the media articles claiming “The buildings had holes in them” or “He really did avoid 4 AMRAAMS then shot down an F-16”....
Posts: 1,615
By: vikasrehman - 10th March 2019 at 21:34 Permalink - Edited 10th March 2019 at 23:08
Over the last week or so, we saw many a poster talking about nuclear war in a callous manner. Over the years, I have noted many of our Indian friends claiming that in a full blown nuclear exchange, Pakistan would cease to exist, but India, as a big country, will be able to sustain it better. Here is an article (for such armchair generals) analysing the effects of a "light" nuclear war between India and pakistan. I hope our armchair generals and paid guests on TV shows would remember this when talking about a nuclear war in casual manner.
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/bu...e-planet-46532
Posts: 3,337
By: BlackArcher - 11th March 2019 at 19:11 Permalink
Pakistani drone shot down in Rajasthan's Sri Ganganagar. Fourth one since Balakot air strike
Posts: 60
By: MaximumG - 12th March 2019 at 14:02 Permalink
https://tribune.com.pk/story/1927981/1-pakistan-successfully-test-fires-long-range-smart-missile-jf-17-thunder/
Video inside.
Any idea what munition we talking about?
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 12th March 2019 at 16:13 Permalink
>Maybe this one?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"PAF JF-17 + extended range glide bomb.jpg","data-attachmentid":3855584}[/ATTACH]
Posts: 10
By: skumar7777 - 13th March 2019 at 03:37 Permalink
Flame baiting but cannot resist :) Please report.
Pakistan is the nation that
Posts: 412
By: Buran - 14th March 2019 at 12:57 Permalink
Ah, That's ok. Other teenage girls go through this phase too and learn how to behave later. Hope you get through this too.
Posts: 10
By: skumar7777 - 14th March 2019 at 14:37 Permalink - Edited 14th March 2019 at 14:38
Exactly the reason I came to this forum, to meet like minded teenage girls like you. Is that not what forums are for?
Now to the substance, with respect to the F16 shoot down in Pakistani counter strike, the only facts known are that the Indian Air Force has claimed to shoot down a F16 and has said it has electronic signatures and provided evidence of parts of an AMRAAM missile used from F16s. The Pakistani government has denied the same and the US government has not confirmed or denied it.
There is a lot of discussion on which forum where incredulity is expressed on how a Mig 21 shot down a F16, however the simple point missed is that it is not the Mig 21 of the 60s.
I am going to refer to the Balakot strikes.
The only facts known in this case are that the Indian government has claimed a successful hit, no information on number of casualties, all the bunkum is quoted from sources quoting other unnamed sources.
Pakistan (not journalists, not third parties) has refuted the strikes and has said that there was no damage.
Pakistan has denied permission to international journalists to visit the actual site after initially saying they will take them on a ground tour and then only allowing them as far as the base of the hill top.