Stupid ? F-22 vs Typhoon?

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16 years 3 months

Posts: 430

Has this mock engagement actually happened yet? I was looking at a youtube clip of the Typhoon linked here on KeyPub (PS: Great display) and someone referenced an IAPR issue when it seem to have referred that it did......but I dont remember this actually happening yet....maybe the next Red Flag but not as of sometime in 06.

The IAPR issue is:

"Internatinal AIR POWER REVIEW" - year 2006, issue 20, page 45"

Thanks if anyone has any info

Original post

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19 years 6 months

Posts: 1,518

The January edition of AFM features a letter to the editor on the subject. Personally I'm not sure how much it can be trusted, but I doubt they would print it if was too suspicious.

The letter mentions that an unofficial engagement has happened. I will quote the letter here:

'This cannot be confirmed or admitted officially, but during Typhoon's visit to the USA in 2005 both aircraft were pitted against each other (unofficially you understand). The F-22 pilot could not be seen by the Typhoon pilot, but his electronic countermeasures showed him that he was being 'painted' by his opponent. The Typhoon took appropriate 'measures' using self-defensive aids. But when it came to one on one combat, the Typhoon did the same job as it did with the Sukhois. The F-22 could not handle the Typhoon close in and the Yanks were shocked!'

Earlier in the letter, the author states that Typhoons were playing with Indian Su-30s, and made mincemeat of them.

I guess the Raptor probably isn't the nimblest aircraft out there, so it isn't entirely implausible.

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18 years 6 months

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What a surprise that a 30 ton aircraft isn't the most nimble one.
No need to jump in and defend the F-22, but it was designed to be a BVR fighter at first with good stand in the dogfight arena.

The Eurofighter is possibly the hottest machine in terms of overall flight performance currently in service. Each aircraft type has its advantages, however, but I think the package of the Eurofighter is best.

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16 years 4 months

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from what i've seen the F-22 is EXTREMELY manouevrable- it does have vectored thust don'tforget!- i can't see how it can lose against a Typhoon

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18 years 2 months

Posts: 113

from what i've seen the F-22 is EXTREMELY manouevrable- it does have vectored thust don'tforget!- i can't see how it can lose against a Typhoon

The Typhoon is smaller and lighter, simple. Thrust vectoring can help, but it can't win a battle against laws of newtonian physics, unless the F-22 can move at relativistic speeds... or higher :D

Member for

20 years 2 months

Posts: 3,187

The January edition of AFM features a letter to the editor on the subject. Personally I'm not sure how much it can be trusted, but I doubt they would print it if was too suspicious.

The letter mentions that an unofficial engagement has happened. I will quote the letter here:

'This cannot be confirmed or admitted officially, but during Typhoon's visit to the USA in 2005 both aircraft were pitted against each other (unofficially you understand). The F-22 pilot could not be seen by the Typhoon pilot, but his electronic countermeasures showed him that he was being 'painted' by his opponent. The Typhoon took appropriate 'measures' using self-defensive aids. But when it came to one on one combat, the Typhoon did the same job as it did with the Sukhois. The F-22 could not handle the Typhoon close in and the Yanks were shocked!'

Earlier in the letter, the author states that Typhoons were playing with Indian Su-30s, and made mincemeat of them.

I guess the Raptor probably isn't the nimblest aircraft out there, so it isn't entirely implausible.

Guess the PIRATE + HMD + ASRAAM combo had allot to do tooo

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18 years 7 months

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Guess the PIRATE + HMD + ASRAAM combo had allot to do tooo

Unlikely as the aircraft being deployed neither featured HMD nor PIRATE.
Other unofficial sources claim that the Typhoon's radar was able to detect the F-22 at 80 km, closer circumstances are unknown however. Difficult to say if these info are really true at all, it is not impossible, but I think if the results were really as "shocking" as they say it is no wonder they play it down and dismiss it as "just rumors".

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18 years 6 months

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Unlikely as the aircraft being deployed neither featured HMD nor PIRATE.
Other unofficial sources claim that the Typhoon's radar was able to detect the F-22 at 80 km, closer circumstances are unknown however. Difficult to say if these info are really true at all, it is not impossible, but I think if the results were really as "shocking" as they say it is no wonder they play it down and dismiss it as "just rumors".

Even if the F-22 was detected, how likely is that a useful firing solution can be derived from that? Could a BVR-missile be successfully been used?
That an F-22 can be detected is only shock to people who believe in stealth = invisible. No surprise to people that know that stealth = (reduced probability of being detected, tracked and shot down using radar guidance).

Member for

20 years 2 months

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Unlikely as the aircraft being deployed neither featured HMD nor PIRATE.
Other unofficial sources claim that the Typhoon's radar was able to detect the F-22 at 80 km, closer circumstances are unknown however. Difficult to say if these info are really true at all, it is not impossible, but I think if the results were really as "shocking" as they say it is no wonder they play it down and dismiss it as "just rumors".

Well that is not impossible. I admit, that I have the RCS 0.0001m^2 value is stuck in my head, but still in real life that value will balloon depending on many a different variables.... So I must say, my mind is certainly not closed to the F-22 being detected at 80 km.

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20 years 3 months

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Come on people!! Let this subject go! Dozer had said million times in other forum,that no engagement between the F-22 vs typhoon had ever happened. And he have never heard anything about that! No F-22's being detected at 80Km either!

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18 years 11 months

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Come on people!! Let this subject go! Dozer had said million times in other forum,that no engagement between the F-22 vs typhoon had ever happened. And he have never heard anything about that! No F-22's being detected at 80Km either!

No kidding. That Airtime Publishing allowed that kind of crap to be published in their magazine astounds me. But I guess if you say "internet rumors" it makes it okay. :rolleyes: "Fanboy fantasies" would have been more accurate.

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18 years 10 months

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That Airtime Publishing allowed that kind of crap to be published in their magazine astounds me.

In my opinion, this is the real question in this story...

Who's the writter of such a letter ? What did AFM know about him to accept publishing it ? Why was it published ?

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18 years 7 months

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People dismiss a lot of things which some would like to keep them out of the public. There were unmentioned RAF sources which made such claims. I don't know if they are true or not, but dismissing them just because someone says it wasn't so is wrong too. I prefer to keep such info in my mind, but not to argue with unconfirmed information/data, especially not when they are marked as "rumor" from the very beginning.
BTW 80 km is not impossible detection range of a radar depends on a lot of factors, but as Schorsch meant the detection alone is not enough to get a kill.

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20 years 7 months

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I have to admit that when I read that letter my eyes rolled involutarily. I'm not saying its true or false, its just that it reads like the ramblings of a tabloid columnist.......................or a teenager nursing a semi.

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18 years 11 months

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People dismiss a lot of things which some would like to keep them out of the public. There were unmentioned RAF sources which made such claims.

So vague, non-attributable "rumors" have more merit than someone who would know (Dozer)? You know I happened to hear a rumor (never mind from who because they are anonymous) that Typhoons met up with some old Mig-21s in an exercise and got their a$$es handed to them. I guess that has as much merit as the Typhoon/F-22 "rumors" eh? :diablo:

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17 years 11 months

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well said. just because trash is published doesnt make it authoritative. plus ppl tend to believe whatever supports their belief bias/ pov and thats what allows rumour mills to thrive. if there werent suckers being born every minute, there wouldnt be scamsters. and so on.

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18 years 7 months

Posts: 4,461

So vague, non-attributable "rumors" have more merit than someone who would know (Dozer)? You know I happened to hear a rumor (never mind from who because they are anonymous) that Typhoons met up with some old Mig-21s in an exercise and got their a$$es handed to them. I guess that has as much merit as the Typhoon/F-22 "rumors" eh? :diablo:

Well no one says more merit for such a rumor, I hate to repeat myself, I neither say it's true or false nor use these rumors as arguments. I personally don't exclude the possibility of such encounter. If Dozer says no, ok, but this could also have other reasons than that it haven't happened. Let alone that Dozer said he don't know about such thing. Do you really think every even official person knows it all?

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16 years 7 months

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from what i've seen the F-22 is EXTREMELY manouevrable- it does have vectored thust don'tforget!- i can't see how it can lose against a Typhoon

From what I have witnessed in real life and video clips the Eurofighter is the most agile aircraft out there, the combination of speed of manouvers, outright jaw-dropping accelertation and climb ability and sustained turn rates make it phernominal,

However the F-22 is more manoverable, it can manouver at lower speeds, i.e it can manuover more in the wider flight envelope, that does not mean it will win a WVR engagement.

An A380 can be described as manuorables, as shown by its demos at le Bourget alike, however its agility is questionable:D

Being able to do a backflip does not win a fight.

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18 years 11 months

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Let alone that Dozer said he don't know about such thing. Do you really think every even official person knows it all?

It's not like the Typhoon and F-22 share the same airspace all the time. There's only been one time period (not classified obviously) where they've even been in the same state together, let alone in the same airspace, and he was speaking of that time period specifically. It's also the same time when these "confrontations" supposedly occurred. So no, it's not at all unbelievable that he just might have an idea what was going on (of course if you'd read his account of that you'd know that already).

Member for

18 years 11 months

Posts: 9,683

From what I have witnessed in real life and video clips the Eurofighter is the most agile aircraft out there, the combination of speed of manouvers, outright jaw-dropping accelertation and climb ability and sustained turn rates make it phernominal,

However the F-22 is more manoverable, it can manouver at lower speeds, i.e it can manuover more in the wider flight envelope, that does not mean it will win a WVR engagement.

An A380 can be described as manuorables, as shown by its demos at le Bourget alike, however its agility is questionable:D

Being able to do a backflip does not win a fight.

Being more difficult to see does though. :diablo:

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16 years 7 months

Posts: 3,765

So vague, non-attributable "rumors" have more merit than someone who would know (Dozer)? You know I happened to hear a rumor (never mind from who because they are anonymous) that Typhoons met up with some old Mig-21s in an exercise and got their a$$es handed to them. I guess that has as much merit as the Typhoon/F-22 "rumors" eh? :diablo:

Something definetelly happened

US deployment

The RAF's 17 Sqn OEU has routinely deployed two aircraft and around 30 personnel to the USA to operate alongside US fighters including the Lockheed MartinF-22A Raptor. "The vast majority of this work is about making sure that the integration of the two platforms is working," says Walker. Asked how the fighters compare, he says: "If you want to say that stealth is a determining factor then Typhoon stands second to the F-22. But I think that as we do more work, the Typhoon will more than hold its own. It's the balance of how you use it, rather than what it is."

Officer commanding 11 Sqn Wg Cdr Gav Parker


http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2007/04/24/213451/eurofighter-typhoon-special-blue-sky-thinking.html

Taking into account that the RAF has maintained a detachment of two "Phoon´s" for a couple of year´s in the USA, that there are photos of those planes in three diferent air bases, in three diferent states, that one of the front line F22 pilot´s is a bloke of his Majesty´s Royal Air Force (Flight Lt. Dan Robinson), that the full capabilities of the RAPTOR were demonstrated to the Brit´s right from the beggining´s of the YF-22 test flight´s, etc, etc, etc...
Add up the comment above by Sqn Wg Cdr Gav Parker and i would be very cautious in dismissing the possibility of DACT between those two jet´s.
Actually, one could ask, if the phoon´s weren´t doing DACT against the USAF, USNAVY and/or the Marine Corps jet´s WHAT THE HELL were they doing in the States for almost TWO YEARS? And why the jet´s and the personel were rotated at least two times? (The rotations were picked by spotter´s in the Azores, there are some wonderful photos of Typhoon´s going West in the Terceira island in 2006 and 2007)
And what in god´s name (and in RAF parlance) is "operate alongside US fighters including the Lockheed MartinF-22A Raptor"?
Is it just me, or the possibility of evaluating the latest kit against a "worst scenario threat", sounds convincing? ;)

Cheers :)