CH-14 “Aguilucho Argentina`s attack Helicopter

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16 years 2 months

Posts: 776

Looks wise the front reminds me of Blue Thunder! Whats it going to do though to the enemy? Hit them with its skids? Also where were any sensors, i sure couldn't see any, still looked cool though and always nice to see new stuff as i think we all get a bit bored of the same old attack helo's (i know i do a bit). Oh its 'headlights' are neat too :) Edit: also why does every airshow / demonstration anywhere in the world always have to be accompanied by predictable music, absolutey the worst thing at any airshow,even more anyoyning then some parking arrangements is the damn music, listen airshow organisers we don't need the tacky music, no one cares about it and its silly just stop it now!

Member for

18 years 8 months

Posts: 1,327

It has the right sort of look, but it is simply not an attack helicopter - the payload capability simply isn't there. It might be uprated, and perhaps carry a machinegun or grenade launcher, but it will still be no more of an attack helicopter (in fact much less so) than helos like the Gazelle and Squirrel (or early Kiowas).

In effect, if it is a technology demonstrator for a larger helo, then it is great. If, on the other hand, they expect to stick a GPMG on the side and call it an attack helo, then that's their right, but by most normal standards, that's not what it is.

Member for

16 years 7 months

Posts: 167

It has the right sort of look, but it is simply not an attack helicopter - the payload capability simply isn't there. It might be uprated, and perhaps carry a machinegun or grenade launcher, but it will still be no more of an attack helicopter (in fact much less so) than helos like the Gazelle and Squirrel (or early Kiowas).

In effect, if it is a technology demonstrator for a larger helo, then it is great. If, on the other hand, they expect to stick a GPMG on the side and call it an attack helo, then that's their right, but by most normal standards, that's not what it is.

I don't think anybody expects this little chopper to give the AH-64 Apache a run for it's money. However, with an on board speed measurement device, a small FLIR turret mounted and DVR equipment installed it would for example make a nice little police chopper.

The intended military roles are:
pilot training, reconnaissance, patrol and light attack.

Some civillian uses that have been suggested for the CH-14 are:
pilot training, forestry (fire fighting) and wildlife management, cinematographic work, general agricultural work and general civilian police use.

:D

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

It has the right sort of look, but it is simply not an attack helicopter - the payload capability simply isn't there. It might be uprated, and perhaps carry a machinegun or grenade launcher, but it will still be no more of an attack helicopter (in fact much less so) than helos like the Gazelle and Squirrel (or early Kiowas).

In effect, if it is a technology demonstrator for a larger helo, then it is great. If, on the other hand, they expect to stick a GPMG on the side and call it an attack helo, then that's their right, but by most normal standards, that's not what it is.

It is an army helicopter and it is more a prototype than an operational helicopter, it can carry 700kg load, your assesment its right it is more a scout surveillance helicopter than an anti tank attack helicopter, however the only real thing why it is an important feat it is because it is the first ever domestically designed and built latin american Helicopter.

When Argentina sold its FAMA aircraft company to Lockheed, it seemed the end of the domestic Argentine aircraft industry, however this aircraft it is totally built in Argentina (except the engine of course) and has the potential future of becoming an army helo sold throught out Latin America and the developing world

Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 244

Being more realistic, this helicopter can make a good replacement for Argentina's MD-500's.

-----JT-----

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18 years 3 months

Posts: 519

its similar to Russian Ansat,but I think the Russian better than
Aguilucho

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

its similar to Russian Ansat,but I think the Russian better than
Aguilucho

The CH-14 is just a prototype ordered by Argentina`s army and it might be the begining of a domestic helicopter industry in Argentina and probably in South america.

In general if this helicopter advances into a production model and gets comercial success it is probable it will become the basis of the whole mercosur and latian american domestic helicopter industry.

I agree the Ansat has more advanced features but the AH-14 Cicare is just the begining and it has a disadvantage of 50 of experience with respect Russia.

Member for

19 years 3 months

Posts: 1,620

Of course, as stated above, it could be a concept testbed. Below is an example of a concept testbed and the final product. I'm not saying it will follow this design path through to a heavy attack helicopter, but that this is a first stab and might see some growth. Also, as mentioned, it is basically indigenous apart from the engine. It is better to employ locals first!!

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Member for

18 years 7 months

Posts: 244

Of course, as stated above, it could be a concept testbed. Below is an example of a concept testbed and the final product. I'm not saying it will follow this design path through to a heavy attack helicopter, but that this is a first stab and might see some growth. Also, as mentioned, it is basically indigenous apart from the engine. It is better to employ locals first!!

Exactly...they may even make a light CH-14 to replace the MD-500 and light helicopters used by Argentina, and a heavier CH-14 to become more of a dedicated attack helicopter. If you think about it, Argentina would not even need a very heavy attack helicopter (like an Apache or Tigre). A lighter one, almost like an in between the attack MD500 and Cobra, would probably be better for it's needs (maybe even start a new category of medium weight attack helicopters).

-----JT-----

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 932

Being more realistic, this helicopter can make a good replacement for Argentina's MD-500's.

It would also seem to be a far less advanced than the current MD-500, or even the very earliest Hughes 500.

Doesn't anyone notice the crude 2 blade rotor?

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 932

The CH-14 is just a prototype ordered by Argentina`s army and it might be the begining of a domestic helicopter industry in Argentina and probably in South america.

This seems to be very unlikely.

In general if this helicopter advances into a production model and gets comercial success it is probable it will become the basis of the whole mercosur and latian american domestic helicopter industry.

Isn't it premature to make this sort of statement? So far, all we see is a demonstrator with dynamics that would have seemed outdated 40 years ago, and a pseudo-stealth fuselage shape.

Helicopter production in South America is more likely to stem from an established international consortium like Eurocopter, than an inexperienced start -up. I could more easily imagine a production line moved from Germany or France to Brazil, than a crude domestic design gaining international sales.

I agree the Ansat has more advanced features but the AH-14 Cicare is just the begining and it has a disadvantage of 50 of experience with respect Russia.

The Ansat is the result of a long design process, funded by international sales of Kazan produced Mi-17s. The Ansat is credible design that has evolved over time, from an established company.

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

This seems to be very unlikely.

Isn't it premature to make this sort of statement? So far, all we see is a demonstrator with dynamics that would have seemed outdated 40 years ago, and a pseudo-stealth fuselage shape.

Helicopter production in South America is more likely to stem from an established international consortium like Eurocopter, than an inexperienced start -up. I could more easily imagine a production line moved from Germany or France to Brazil, than a crude domestic design gaining international sales.

In fact one of the main golas of the CH-14 project is make it a exportable aircraft

The Ansat is the result of a long design process, funded by international sales of Kazan produced Mi-17s. The Ansat is credible design that has evolved over time, from an established company.

Your statements are well founded, however they lack an element you miss and that the argentine webpages do consider.

Eurocopter already has stablished production plants in Brazil and Mexico, Brazil did assemble a few Panther helicopters domestically and in Mexico at least some production is going on i do not know if they have built parts, spares or assembled helicopters look

MEXICO CITY- With a US$60 million investment, the helicopters
assembler. Eurocopter de Mexico, expanded their inventories,
logistics, maintenance and workshop areas to cover the growing
demand of the Mexican and Latina American markets.

With 25 years in the domestic market, Eurocopter de Mexico, one of
the five subsidiaries Eurocopter has all over the world, is planning
to assemble 30 units this year, which they will sell in Mexico,
Central America and South America, according to
Phillipe Harache, Eurocopter Executive Vice-president

http://www.maquilaportal.com/cgi-bin/public/board.pl?klie=11

Helibras did assemble the Panther Helicopter in Brazil, McDonnel Helicopters does build fuselages in Mexico.

However there is one thing where Argentina is ahead, niether Brazil or Mexico have designed a helicopter, consider that Mexico and Brazil do have large fleets of Helicopters.

Eurocopter and Mc Donnell douglas Helicopters do not allow the development of local industries, and despite the CH-14 might be slightly more expensive that a foreign counterpart it does allow the development of the local argentine industry.

In fact Cicare is built by an argentine designer and with the participation of Argentina`s Universities and armed forces and the main purpose is to spread the knowledge in the design of helicopters.

In fact one of the porpuses of the Cicare company is to export the Helicopter.

http://www.airfighters.com/photo_14264.details.large

Buenos Aires, 23 November (Telam) -The Army today presented the first military helicopter developed and built in Argentina at a ceremony at Aviation Command, in Campo de Mayo, headed by the chief of the force, General Roberto Bendini.

The CH-14 is a two-seater powered by a turbine and was developed by Augusto Cicare, dean of the activity in this country and creator half a century ago of the CH-1, the first helicopter built in South America, an Army source told Telam.

Bendini emphasized the achievement that the aircraft represents, which he called "a source of pride for the Army and a source of national pride," while speaking at a ceremony held this afternoon for the 49th anniversary of Army Aviation.

He also detailed the expansion of a hangar and other Army Aviation facilities, made possible by the budget increases of the past few years and the effort of the military personnel.

In another section of his speech, he praised the "courage" of the military aviators in various missions, especially those carried out during the Malvinas [Falkland Islands] war.

The CH-14 is a tandem two-seater (one crew member forward and the other aft) for surveillance and light attack, which Cicare designed on assignment from the Army.

"This craft is a very important step for the development of a domestic helicopter industry and a contribution so our country can regain a leadership position in the aeronautical field," the source consulted said.

The prototype of the CH-14 uses an imported turbine and other components, but in future stages of manufacture increasing integration of domestically produced components is planned. In addition to the manufacture of the CH-14, Cicare is working with the Army on developing two other helicopters, a "side-by-side" two-seater (with its two crew members in parallel) and a four-seater for training, liaison, transport, and rescue.

Besides the CH-14 and the two projects mentioned, in the past few years the Army successfully carried out the conversion of the UH-1H Huey helicopter to the Huey II version, done by the 601st Aircraft Maintenance and Supply Battalion. This updating has costs much lower than those which doing it in the United States at the Bell company, which certified the Huey II, would have involved.

Among other improvements, it includes more turbine power, more payload, range, and flight altitude, as well as operating costs 40 per cent lower than those of the UH-1H, according to specialized publications.

As for Cicare, 70, at age 21 he already flew his CH-1, the first helicopter built in South America, for which he used materials and instruments that were not of aeronautical origin. Between the 1960s and 1990s, he developed other civilian-use helicopters, including the CH-5, for agricultural use; the CH-6 and its improved version CH-7, a mini-helicopter with an innovative system of controls; and the CH-8, ultralight, two-seater, twin-engine. He also worked on the CH-9 (a "side-by-side" two-seater in two versions: with one or two turbines of Argentine design), and together with CITEFA [Armed Forces Scientific and Technical Research Institute] on the development of the CH-11, an RPV [Remotely Piloted Vehicle] (pilotless surveillance) with counter-rotating rotors.

In addition, in 1969 he created an airplane flight simulator and in 1994 the remarkable SVH-3 helicopter flight simulator/trainer, winner of many awards and sold to Argentine companies and government agencies and to countries like Great Britain, Canada, and Australia.

Outside the aeronautical industry, Cicare manufactured engines as a teenager and years later designed and built a V-4 with a cogged timing belt for installation in DKW automobiles, at the request of Juan Manuel Fangio [note: famous race car driver].

During the event at which the CH-14 was presented, Bendini awarded prizes and recognitions to the outstanding Army Aviation personnel.

He was accompanied by the chairman of the Army Aviation Technical Troop Committee, General (retired) Arturo Grandinetti; the Commander of Army Aviation, Colonel Gustavo Serain; and other military, civilian, and religious authorities, and guests.

The ceremony ended with a parade of troops on foot and the flyover of helicopters from the Army Aviation units of Campo de Mayo, Neuquen, Parana

<a href="http://www.saorbats.com.ar/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cicare-ch-14.jpg" title="http://www.saorbats.com.ar/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cicare-ch-14.jpg">http://www.saorbats.com.ar/news/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/cicare-ch-14.jpg</a>
http://www.zibb.com/article/2242454/Argentine+army+presents+first+homegrown+military+helicopter

http://foro.loquo.com/viewtopic.php?t=97012&highlight=

http://elaustral.foroactivo.com/ejercito-argentino-f2/presentacion-del-cicare-ch-14-t319-15.htm

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

Exactly...they may even make a light CH-14 to replace the MD-500 and light helicopters used by Argentina, and a heavier CH-14 to become more of a dedicated attack helicopter. If you think about it, Argentina would not even need a very heavy attack helicopter (like an Apache or Tigre). A lighter one, almost like an in between the attack MD500 and Cobra, would probably be better for it's needs (maybe even start a new category of medium weight attack helicopters).

-----JT-----

Argentina has a long stablished helicopter industry for latin american standards here are some of the previous Cicare Helicopters, in fact the CH-14 was not exactly the first military helicopter developed in Argentina, however it is probably the first to have a real potential as an attack one.

Currently Cicare is developing a side by side helicopter, the CH-9, that will probably be in the MD-500 class

http://www.helis.com/timeline/cicare.php

On the pictures are the CH-5, CH-7 and CH-14 all built and designed in Argentina

Member for

19 years 11 months

Posts: 224

Eurocopter already has stablished production plants in Brazil and Mexico, Brazil did assemble a few Panther helicopters domestically and in Mexico at least some production is going on i do not know if they have built parts, spares or assembled helicopters look

Eurocopter/Helibras only assembles helicopters in Brazil. There´s no production line there, perhaps the paint is brazilian made. Of course they promissed to Brazil in the 80s that a production line would be open there if they bought the Panthers which they did and it did not happened.

In the 90s they did the same with the Cougars and again there were no production line openned there. Another lie. To get worse this situation, only France is allowed to refurbish Panthers and Cougars. Helibras was not certified by Eurocopter for this level of maintenance. So Brazil has to send those helicopters to France if they need a major overhaull which usually takes more than six months and costs the triple or more if the job was done in Brazil.

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

Eurocopter/Helibras only assembles helicopters in Brazil. There´s no production line there, perhaps the paint is brazilian made. Of course they promissed to Brazil in the 80s that a production line would be open there if they bought the Panthers which they did and it did not happened.

In the 90s they did the same with the Cougars and again there were no production line openned there. Another lie. To get worse this situation, only France is allowed to refurbish Panthers and Cougars. Helibras was not certified by Eurocopter for this level of maintenance. So Brazil has to send those helicopters to France if they need a major overhaull which usually takes more than six months and costs the triple or more if the job was done in Brazil.

Well no one said they do everything, i only said they assemble and license built the Esquilo and Panther i know i few have been built of the former

http://www.aeromilitaria.com.ar/gna/flota/foto01.jpg
In fact Helibras has built more than 300 helicopters and at least 151 military helicopters for the brazilian armed forces

http://www.segurancaedefesa.com/PantherEB.jpg
http://www.segurancaedefesa.com/laad2005_noticias.html
http://www.protocolo.com.mx/images/upload/Inauguran-1-(4-sep-06).jpg

http://www.protocolo.com.mx/articulos.php?id_sec=4&id_art=1608&id_ejemplar=0

Now in Brazil like in Mexico they have opted for a different approach, built the helicopters or helicopter parts and get some degree of technology transfer either by training specialist in the area of helicopter building or getting some machinery from the stablished manufacturer in this case Eurocopter or Mc Donnel Douglas Helicopters.

You can not expect the stablished manufacturer will loose or be in disadvantage, Cicare in argentina has followed another path in the application of foreign components to a domestic design.

Both pathways are good, one gives economic insentive to the economy, for example Mc Donnel douglas Helicopters Mexico builds fuselages of the MD-500 for the US army and other customers, however the technology transfer is very limited, the viability of economic and manufacturing independence is also very limited since the company is owned by foreigners.

Helibras up to a point has more freedom however it is only stimulated by the market and is a Brazilian company but is limited in the sense it is dependant in foreign designs.

Cicare has more technological independence and complete technological leadership however it is dependant upon market needs too and a very unreliable market the domestic military market.
The Cicare CH-14

http://www.dintel-gid.com.ar/Image1/Aguilucho/CH-149.jpg

The only way Cicare can succeed is if only can sell its designs all over the place in Latin America and the Argentine Government does buy at least a large order as India did with its Druv

the CH-16 a future Helicopter
http://www.dintel-gid.com.ar/Image1/Aguilucho/CH-143.jpg
the CH-7

http://www.dintel-gid.com.ar/Image1/Aguilucho/CH-146.jpg

source
http://www.dintel-gid.com.ar/articulos_sistemas/articulo45.html

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19 years 11 months

Posts: 224

Well no one said they do everything, i only said they assemble and license built the Esquilo and Panther i know i few have been built of the former.

Oh boy. They are doing almost the entire Esquilo there.;)

Fabricação de peças e instalações opcionais

A Helibras já produz no País algumas peças, conjuntos e instalações opcionais para o Grupo Eurocopter. Entre eles, está um conjunto de suporte de espelhos retrovisores do modelo Esquilo, o conduto de distribuição de fluxo de ar condicionado para a cabine do Colibri EC 120, kit aeromédico para o helicóptero Esquilo, carenagens blindadas em materiais compostos e instalações de armamentos axiais para versões militares do Esquilo e Dauphin.

Source: Helibras website.

What pieces of tecnology from the brazilian high-tec aerospace industry.;)

I believe that in the 80s the brazilian company Aeromot manufactured some basic avionics for the Esquilo but since the current instruments are much more complex they quit manufacturing those instruments due lack of money for development and expertise.

The only good news is that France finally allowed Helibras to perform a major overhaull in the Panther, refurbishment of Cougars still forbidden. According to one source they only did that because Sikorsky offered to the Brazilian Army the UH-60 Blackhawk and would acept the Panthers as part of the payment. Sikorky had no problems allowing Brazil the right to perform major overhaulls in the UH-60 fleet.

In fact Helibras has built more than 300 helicopters and at least 151 military helicopters for the brazilian armed forces.

I´m sorry, but theree´s a big diference between Manufacturing and Assembling. Helibras only assembles foreing made parts.

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

Oh boy. They are doing almost the entire Esquilo there.;)

Fabricação de peças e instalações opcionais

A Helibras já produz no País algumas peças, conjuntos e instalações opcionais para o Grupo Eurocopter. Entre eles, está um conjunto de suporte de espelhos retrovisores do modelo Esquilo, o conduto de distribuição de fluxo de ar condicionado para a cabine do Colibri EC 120, kit aeromédico para o helicóptero Esquilo, carenagens blindadas em materiais compostos e instalações de armamentos axiais para versões militares do Esquilo e Dauphin.

Source: Helibras website.

What pieces of tecnology from the brazilian high-tec aerospace industry.;)

I believe that in the 80s the brazilian company Aeromot manufactured some basic avionics for the Esquilo but since the current instruments are much more complex they quit manufacturing those instruments due lack of money for development and expertise.

The only good news is that France finally allowed Helibras to perform a major overhaull in the Panther, refurbishment of Cougars still forbidden. According to one source they only did that because Sikorsky offered to the Brazilian Army the UH-60 Blackhawk and would acept the Panthers as part of the payment. Sikorky had no problems allowing Brazil the right to perform major overhaulls in the UH-60 fleet.

I´m sorry, but theree´s a big diference between Manufacturing and Assembling. Helibras only assembles foreing made parts.

Man i do not understand all your whining, in Latin america as in any part of the world market demands is what drives a civil program, military programs in Latin america barely have been successful.

http://www.aviationcorner.net/gallery.asp?aircraft_type=Cicar%E9+CH-14+Aguilucho

What Helibras has done is something normal to have a viable program, are they learning? yes they are, however they are not going to start a domestic program if it is not economically sound because it requieres an investment too large and so much expertise to design a totally domestic design.
Can Mexico or Brazil build domestic helicopters? the answer is probably yes, however it is more practical to make fuselages for Bombardier and Mcdonnel Douglas in the case of Mexico or Embraer aircraft in the case of Brazil because the programs do cheapen the learning progress of the local industries even if the entire aircraft is not Brazilian in the case of Embraer or the patent is gotten by a foreign firm in the case of Mexico when mexican engineers design jet engine control systems for General Electric.

The Cicare CH-14 is not de most advanced helicopter in the world however at least is a domestic design if Brazil or Mexico assemble or built some parts or spares of non domestic designs is also good because it gives expertise and jobs in a very practical way, Cicare in that is in disadvantage, unless it can have enough firm orders it is difficult to know the real future of the project and even of the company it self.

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

a few more aguilucho pictures

Member for

16 years 2 months

Posts: 776

Well i think your little helicopter is very nice Mig23MLD.

Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 3,010

Well i think your little helicopter is very nice Mig23MLD.

I would like the CH-14 was of my creation but sadly it is not, however it is a great feat for Argentina that created the first Jet fighter in Latin America and one of the first jet aircraft in the world, and in 2007 has once more become the leading nation in helicopter design in Latin America, Cicare created his firsts helicopters not many years after Sikorsky and bell but it took to many years for Cicare to build a relatively large helicopter.
However Cicare was not acknowledged as he should had until the CH-14 was presented by the government of Argentina in 2007.

http://www.procedimientospoliciales.com/nota.asp?CodigoNoticia=2774
http://extrafam.mforos.com/628472/6471738-el-nuevo-helo-del-ejercito-argentino-ch-14-de-cicare/
http://www.lamanana.com.ar/28-11-07/pplana.html

The pictures show the CH-1 and CH-2 helicopters and Augusto Cicare inside the CH-14