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By: - 20th June 2008 at 20:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easily the most capable one is MiG-21-93 or its Indian modification called Bison.
Second best would be Elbit MiG-21 Lancer-C with ELTA EL/M-2032M radar.
By: - 20th June 2008 at 23:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easily the most capable one is MiG-21-93 or its Indian modification called Bison.
Second best would be Elbit MiG-21 Lancer-C with ELTA EL/M-2032M radar.
In terms of the capabilities of their weapons and sophistication of onboard electronics those two have an edge. I have, however, been told by people who have seen them up close that the later model double delta J/F-7E/G/PG are of better manufacturing quality than the old Russian ones and the latest double delta J-7G/PG is probably a better bet in a dogfight than a MiG-21MF/Bis. The Chinese have made great strides in quality control since the J-7A first flew.
Basically, if I was in the market for a small single engined fighter on a limited budget I'd go for the FC-1. If I couldn't afford that I'd take an F-7G over a tired old MiG-21Bis upgraded to MiG-21-93 standard in a heartbeat and I don't think I'd care that the F-7 can't carry BVR missiles since they are of limited use on an aircraft with such short legs.
By: - 20th June 2008 at 23:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
... not that having better quality manufacturing in today's computer age than back in the 60s is such big achievement..
By: - 20th June 2008 at 23:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Weren't MiG-21s assembled in the old Czechoslovakia considered of better quality than those built in the Soviet Union?
By: - 20th June 2008 at 23:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was there any difference in quality between the aircraft made in the USSR and other East Bloc countries?
By: - 21st June 2008 at 00:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
... not that having better quality manufacturing in today's computer age than back in the 60s is such big achievement..
That's not what I was trying to say. Obviously 60s technology is inferior to modern machining but then again even during the 60s Soviet manufacturing quality was awful compared to contemporary aircraft like the Northrop F-5 (Which I would pick over any MiG-21 or F-7 even if the F-5 is also a 60s design).
However, if one is actually forced to buy a member of the MiG-21 family and one isn't stuck with the option of upgrading because one already has a bunch of MiG-21MF or Bis fighters sitting on the tarmac screaming for something more modern than an RP-21 and AA-2s. If one really had to choose between a MiG-21 and the F-7G. Why would one pick a reconditioned 30+ year old MiG-21Bis when one could get a new built F-7G made with modern machine tools?
By: - 21st June 2008 at 01:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easily the most capable one is MiG-21-93 or its Indian modification called Bison.
Second best would be Elbit MiG-21 Lancer-C with ELTA EL/M-2032M radar.
Yup....
MiG-21 BISON in the IAF!. Heck it even took out some F-15 during Cope India 04 IIRC :eek: :eek: :eek: (I have also heard of a even nastier boy called MiG-21-97, but not sure what happen to that)
Some others:
MiG-21 Lancer
MiG-21 2000 (EL/M-2032, DASH etc.).
The most capable J-7 would be the J-7G/G2 (and its export variants). Its essentially a dog-fighter and considered to be quite agile because of its redesigned wing, but AFAWK, does not have BVR and carries KLJ-6E (Can't compare with Kopyo or EL/M-2032)
By: - 21st June 2008 at 10:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That's not what I was trying to say. Obviously 60s technology is inferior to modern machining but then again even during the 60s Soviet manufacturing quality was awful compared to contemporary aircraft like the Northrop F-5 (Which I would pick over any MiG-21 or F-7 even if the F-5 is also a 60s design).However, if one is actually forced to buy a member of the MiG-21 family and one isn't stuck with the option of upgrading because one already has a bunch of MiG-21MF or Bis fighters sitting on the tarmac screaming for something more modern than an RP-21 and AA-2s. If one really had to choose between a MiG-21 and the F-7G. Why would one pick a reconditioned 30+ year old MiG-21Bis when one could get a new built F-7G made with modern machine tools?
Whatever you choose, it will be a basic design from the 50s with some refinements later on. In former times you was in need of some performances to make effective use of your then limited avionics and weapons. Today the capability of avionics and state of the art weapons had outperformed "flying performances" multipel.
Despite new built, the F-7G is outdated, without state of the art avionics and weapons.
By: - 21st June 2008 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yup....MiG-21 BISON in the IAF!. Heck it even took out some F-15 during Cope India 04 IIRC :eek: :eek: :eek: (I have also heard of a even nastier boy called MiG-21-97, but not sure what happen to that)
Some others:
MiG-21 Lancer
MiG-21 2000 (EL/M-2032, DASH etc.).
The best if you look at radar and weapons systems but these upgrades remain old fighters due to flight capabilities, airframe and engines. If one shoots down an F-15 (from BVR) its just a matter of luck. If they are at close range they are sitting ducks. In modern warfare AWACS and flying command posts are used so these "upgrades" will not stand any chance.
By: - 21st June 2008 at 14:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What about the engines? How does the Russian R13 compare to the Chinese versions or even a Western contemporary like the J-79?
By: - 21st June 2008 at 15:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Bilson has the better radar and longer reach, but the latest J7s will rape it at wvr.
By: - 21st June 2008 at 16:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Bilson has the better radar and longer reach, but the latest J7s will rape it at wvr.
No, because the Bison-pilot has two options.
A) Not going into WVR or B) use his HMS+R-73.
By: - 21st June 2008 at 18:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Best ever Mig-21?
Shenyang J-8F Finback :D
:diablo:
By: - 22nd June 2008 at 21:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Basically, if I was in the market for a small single engined fighter on a limited budget I'd go for the FC-1. If I couldn't afford that I'd take an F-7G over a tired old MiG-21Bis upgraded to MiG-21-93 standard in a heartbeat and I don't think I'd care that the F-7 can't carry BVR missiles since they are of limited use on an aircraft with such short legs.
are you joking ? the Bison was giving F-15Cs headaches and had taken a few down during exercises between the IAF and USAF, with simulated R-77 shots..a F-7P/PG would'nt even get into firing range before a F-15 would take it out.
fact is that in a head to head faceoff, a Kopyo + R-77 equipped Bison would take the F-7 out from BVR range while the F-7 pilot would not even be aware of the Bison's presence without AWACS. the cockpit of the Bison is much more uncluttered, and with HOTAS controls reduces the pilot's workload.
The Indians flew a number of different fighters, including the French-made Mirage 2000 and the Russian-made MIG-27 and MIG-29, but the two most formidable IAF aircraft proved to be the MIG-21 Bison, an upgraded version of the Russian-made baseline MIG-21, and the SU-30K Flanker, also made in Russia, Neubeck said.
this was against F-15s that look to finish most combat in BVR itself, against pilots who are very experienced at BVR. against pilots who mostly look to fight WVR fights, the Bison could choose not to ever enter the WVR arena and if it missed at BVR, simply disengage and egress. nothing the F-7P/PG could do about that..
how on earth does short legs have anything to do with BVR combat is beyond me..its WVR that requires substantial reserves of fuel for maneuvering when the merge happens. with BVR, you can shoot well before the merge and scoot. in fact, the capability to conduct BVR shoots offsets any manuvering gains the F-7 may have over the MiG-21Bis.
Bison cockpit compared to original MiG-21Bis cockpit
the Bison incorporates Elta ELM 2022 SPJ, twin conformal Vympel chaff and flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds), DRDO's Tarang RWR (used on the Su-30MKI and Tejas as well) in addition to Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, Sextant MFD-55 LCD display, autopilot, digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, a SURA helmet mounted sight (HMS which can be slaved to R-73Es for high offbore sight shots), stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios and a new electric power supply system.
also, the Bisons were structurally upgraded, so they're not "tired" Bis anymore..in fact, IAF MiG-21 accident rates have reduced significantly after the induction of the Bison.
By: - 22nd June 2008 at 21:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Bilson has the better radar and longer reach, but the latest J7s will rape it at wvr.
on the contrary, Bisons with off-boresight R-73Es and Sura-K HMS and a bundle of chaff/flares, would be the ones raping F-7s.
By: - 22nd June 2008 at 21:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
are you joking ? the Bison was giving F-15Cs headaches and had taken a few down during exercises between the IAF and USAF, with simulated R-77 shots..a F-7P/PG would'nt even get into firing range before a F-15 would take it out.fact is that in a head to head faceoff, a Kopyo + R-77 equipped Bison would take the F-7 out from BVR range while the F-7 pilot would not even be aware of the Bison's presence without AWACS. the cockpit of the Bison is much more uncluttered, and with HOTAS controls reduces the pilot's workload.
this was against F-15s that look to finish most combat in BVR itself, against pilots who are very experienced at BVR. against pilots who mostly look to
how on earth does short legs have anything to do with BVR combat is beyond me..its WVR that requires substantial reserves of fuel for maneuvering when the merge happens. with BVR, you can shoot well before the merge and scoot. in fact, the capability to conduct BVR shoots offsets any manuvering gains the F-7 may have over the MiG-21Bis.
Bison cockpit compared to original MiG-21Bis cockpit
the Bison incorporates Elta ELM 2022 SPJ, twin conformal Vympel chaff and flare dispensers (26mm, 120 rounds), DRDO's Tarang RWR (used on the Su-30MKI and Tejas as well) in addition to Sextant's TOTEM RLG-INS with NSS-100P GPS embedded GPS receivers, El-Op HUD, Sextant MFD-55 LCD display, autopilot, digital flight data recorder, new liquid air cooling system, HOTAS controls, a SURA helmet mounted sight (HMS which can be slaved to R-73Es for high offbore sight shots), stores management system, digital air data computer system, short range radio navigation system, new HF/VHF/UHF radios and a new electric power supply system.
also, the Bisons were structurally upgraded, so they're not "tired" Bis anymore..in fact, IAF MiG-21 accident rates have reduced significantly after the induction of the Bison.
Not a typical contest to stay honest. There were rules of engagement and a restricted exercise area. The Indians at their home turf will not have missed the opportunity to create some tactical surprises for the US-boys, which are used to fight with AWACS to have a superior SA. I am still interest to learn if all cards (=tactical possibilities) were shown. The USA were interest to warm-up their relationship with India, when India was eager to demonstrate its capabilities. At least it was an interesting lesson for some overconfident USAF-boys.
By: - 23rd June 2008 at 02:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Basically, if I was in the market for a small single engined fighter on a limited budget I'd go for the FC-1. If I couldn't afford that I'd take an F-7G over a tired old MiG-21Bis upgraded to MiG-21-93 standard in a heartbeat.. that would be a rather costly mistake.
and I don't think I'd care that the F-7 can't carry BVR missiles since they are of limited use on an aircraft with such short legs.This claim seems to lack any logic. Why would you need long range for BVR? You need much more fuel for WVR close combat.
By: - 23rd June 2008 at 06:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The best are clearly the late J-7 with the double-delta. Deadly little fighter. Not sure about the reasonableness of BVR weapons on it, though. Otherwise might want to talk to Israel about Derby, they already sell you the ELTA radars.
By: - 23rd June 2008 at 09:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The best are clearly the late J-7 with the double-delta. Deadly little fighter. Not sure about the reasonableness of BVR weapons on it, though. Otherwise might want to talk to Israel about Derby, they already sell you the ELTA radars.
AFAIK, no radars for J-7 come from ELTA. J-7G use KLJ-6E type which is said to be 'heavily inspired' by EL/M-2001B but I doubt there is any Derby integration involved in that. I assume that even the original 2001B never was capable to guide a BVR missile like Derby.
Other versions of J-7 radars include 80 Watt version of FIAR Grifo-7PG, GEC Super Skyranger and domestic SY-80 (like Namibian F-7Ns use).
By: - 23rd June 2008 at 11:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I find it amusing that some people would find the obvious so difficult to swollow, a touch of national pride at play maybe?
All I have said is that the latest J7s are superior to the Bilson in WVR, and not a comment on which is better overall, so some people need to read more carefully and take a chill pill.
The latest J7s have HOTAS and HMS+HOB missile options plus RWR and countermeasures since the start. With its far superior handling, better cockpit visibility and brand new airframe, only someone blinded by nationalistic fever would choose a Bilson over it in WVR combat.
The question of which plane is better overal is a very complicated one and depends largely on what mission you want the planes to fly, and the situation at hand.
The Bilson might have BVR, but thats all it has. If you already have the airframes, then the upgrade thats a nice boost to your overall capabilities at a reasonable cost, but it will only ever do a moderate job of any task you set it. That is the cost of having BVR. The latest J7s otoh are uncompramising dogfighters. Get them into WVR combat and they will give even the latest fighters a good run for their money. On their own, that might be a big ask, but if used as part of a well balanced fighter force, then they can allow you to win battles with much smaller losses to your best fighters.
So the question really is, do you want a jack of all trades or a pure-bred dogfighter? Different people will have different answers depending on their preferences and strategies.
Posts: 151
By: AbitNutz - 20th June 2008 at 19:00
Who makes the best Mg 21? China's J7...India or the Original Russian.
Better can mean capability and/or quality of material and workmanship.