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By: - 9th January 2010 at 20:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
what am i to think?
you should think that it was a training exercise and to try and draw any conclusions would be silly
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i might have misunderstood but the bulk of the chat on these forums is based on conjecture.:(
I understand that it was a training session but this didn't stop Rafale fans from making out that their jet is the only aircraft in the world capable of wiping the floor with the F22 and that Typhoon was an embarassment to the RAF.
What i was asking was whether there were any facts available on what happened , or is it all conjecture?
But batting me off with "its just a training exercise" implies that Typhoon having its face rubbed in the sand by Rafale (if that happened) is just one of those things.
With all of the billion dollar defence contracts out there, I would have thought how these jets perform against each other was supremely relevent and unless we invent a war to test equipment in, these exercises are all we have to go on.
I was wondering if there was anything sensible to come out of the fuss before xmas that was all!
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The French claim that Rafale downed 4 Typhoons with no loss, then three with one loss. This wasn't one French pilot, it was the det commander, and the CO of EC 1/7, and the claim wasn't in one isolated report, it stemmed from on-the-record statements at an official press conference.
Small wonder that the French blogosphere concluded that La RAF n’est plus ce que’elle était - "The RAF isn't what it was"
The French also claim that Rafale only found itself in F-22's gunsight once, in six engagements.
And there has been no official contradiction from the USAF or the RAF so far, and there's only been a non-attributable response from industry.
("The stories about the Rafale vs Typhoon are an unjustified and unfair representation of what actually occurred.
In the exercise sorties Typhoons and Rafales worked together on the same team! There were red Typhoon/Rafale combos and blue Typhoon/Rafale combos.
During the CT (continuation training) sorties outside ATLC both Typhoon and Rafale squadrons were conducting work-up sorties for their junior pilots and yes - mistakes were made on both sides where some results like those quoted did occur (but both for and against Rafale) - however to make a big deal about training results would be unfair and entirely unrepresentative.”)
Does this mean that the French claims are true, or that the F-22 and Typhoon communities know exactly what did and didn't happen, feel that they have nothing to prove and feel that it is not their job to justify their existence or to respond to what they view as utter nonsense?
Is their feeling that a shooting war will demonstrate their abilities loud and clear, will there be a response or are they keeping a low profile in the face of a humiliating defeat?
I'd want to know about RoE, etc. myself.
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think we'll hear much more about it. It appears that there were two 4 vs 4 fights, supposley BVR with generic weapon ranges and the Rafale is said to have come out on top with 4:0 in the first encounter and 3:1 in the second one, where their missile range was even further reduced. Beyond that we know nothing, the RAF haven't officially commented and will probabley not do so at all, perhaps some off track comments with no names being given and that's probabley all we'll get. Without knowing more details about the DACT we aren't able to judge that much, if this repeats often enough however there might be an indication that the Rafale is better than many expect in the A2A area. Many people judge the Rafale's A2A performance on the base of predejuices rather than factual information & data.
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Jackonicko,
thats exactly what i was after. I have read the bit about the context of the exercises and understand this particular event was very heavy on the training but i think its very odd for the Rafale group to be so vocal about an obvious selection of the results (despite what the rest of the defence industry might think).
Is it just that they are so keen to sell to india and brasil that they will paint such a one sided picture i wonder.
Scorpion82- is that 4 typhoon v 4 rafale? if so that is a massive demonstration of rafales a2a capability, which is more than anyone would reasonably have expected wouldn't you say?
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Jackonicko,Scorpion82- is that 4 typhoon v 4 rafale? if so that is a massive demonstration of rafales a2a capability, which is more than anyone would reasonably have expected wouldn't you say?
sorry if i sounded short in my other post, it wasnt intended
i would say that you cant draw that conclusion, the ef is a fast and high plane with low lift wing
the rafale is a down in the dirt. high lift wing, more drag
put each in its enviroment and it will shine
our old f111 killed a f-16 that came low to play with us in the f-111 enviroment, does that meant a f-111 is a better dogfighter than a f-16
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, those were two "4 Typhoon vs 4 Rafale" BVR engagements.
And i hope that people will accept the results without implying that French are :
-silly ;
-clowns ;
-liars ;
-desperate.
This time, the Rafale won. We can speculate or not about the RoE, but would the Typhoon have won, it wouldn't have surprised as much, it wouldn't have brought as much scepticism.
This may not even mean that Rafale is superior to Typhoon. But it's a serious indication that Rafale is unfairly and severely under estimated in the A2A role. The only fact that our AdA (as well as our Marine pilots at le Bourget earlier) revealed this story is here to tell the world "stop with all this nonsense".
As Scorpion said :
Many people judge the Rafale's A2A performance on the base of predejuices rather than factual information & data.
Small wonder that the French blogosphere concluded that La RAF n’est plus ce que’elle était - "The RAF isn't what it was"
You know how journalists can be. I know one who wrote a awful unbalanced article in Air International in 2006 if i remember well. It was time for AdA to react.
By: - 9th January 2010 at 21:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, those were two "4 Typhoon vs 4 Rafale" BVR engagements.And i hope that people will accept the results without implying that French are :
-silly ;
-clowns ;
-liars ;
-desperate.This time, the Rafale won. We can speculate or not about the RoE, but would the Typhoon have won, it wouldn't have surprised as much, it wouldn't have brought as much scepticism.
This may not even mean that Rafale is superior to Typhoon. But it's a serious indication that Rafale is unfairly and severely under estimated in the A2A role. The only fact that our AdA (as well as our Marine pilots at le Bourget earlier) revealed this story is here to tell the world "stop with all this nonsense".
As Scorpion said :
You know how journalists can be. I know one who wrote a awful unbalanced article in Air International in 2006 if i remember well. It was time for AdA to react.
i'm not bagging the rafale, i think its a good little plane and a credit to france on a tax base of 60 mil people
it will be good when finances can upgrade some stuff on it, but it will come
i think what upsets a lot is fanboys making wild claims about spectra warning system
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing that everyone should keep in mind is that such declarations (at an official press conference) is not made to fool/misinform forumers like everyone here but it is intended to the professional community (other military that could be potentially interested by buying the rafale).
As a consequence lying would be simply quite embarrassing to say the least...
Note that some UAE pilots flew with the rafale (back seat) during these missions.
I know that rafale vs X and Y is more attractive but we shouldn't forget rafale impressive stand off striking capabability (6 AASM release in a full salvo) and SPECTRA ability to detect SAM threats better than dedicated/specialized SEAD aircrafts. That say even more about its operational capabilities...
the rest is more a pissing contest that would very probably never traduce operationally in a real war scenario...
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Jacko,
your PM box is full...
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but we shouldn't forget rafale impressive stand off striking capabability (6 AASM release in a full salvo) and SPECTRA ability to detect SAM threats better than dedicated/specialized SEAD aircrafts. That say even more about its operational capabilities...
...
and you were doing so well until you put this bit in, abilities not unique to rafale and some planes do it better
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yeah, and Rafale can carry 9 tons, but of course, some planes can do better, the C17 for example.
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yeah, and Rafale can carry 9 tons, but of course, some planes can do better, the C17 for example.,
as i said in a post above the rafale has high lift wings, its a nice plane, but lets not get carried away, i dont think 6 aasm weigh 9 tonns
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
and you were doing so well until you put this bit in, abilities not unique to rafale and some planes do it better
Well Arthuro is not making anything up. It was said in the press release that during ATLC the Rafale was capable of detecting some SAM threats that the US F16CJ couldn't. And in case you're not aware of it, the CJ is dedicated to the SEAD role.
So "this bit" is justified as far as I'm concerned.
Nic
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
,
as i said in a post above the rafale has high lift wings, its a nice plane, but lets not get carried away, i dont think 6 aasm weigh 9 tonns
how much does 6 AASM, 2/3 2000L tanks, and 4/6 mica weight?
Or 2 Scalp + 3 2000L tanks + 4 Mica ?
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well Arthuro is not making anything up. It was said in the press release that during ATLC the Rafale was capable of detecting some SAM threats that the US F16CJ couldn't. And in case you're not aware of it, the CJ is dedicated to the SEAD role.So "this bit" is justified as far as I'm concerned.
Nic
couldnt is a bold word to use, didnt would be better
arent training exercises fun
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
couldnt is a bold word to use, didnt would be better
arent training exercises fun
It definately wouldn't be a better word. The CJs couldn't detect those same sites in that particular training exercise. If they could detect them then, they "would" have done so, live with it.
Nic
By: - 9th January 2010 at 22:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It definately wouldn't be a better word. The CJs couldn't detect those same sites in that particular training exercise . If they could detect them then, they "would" have done so, live with it.Nic
so you're trying to say the f-16 'couldnt' find any and rafale found them all, got a link ?
this is where fanboys get silly, does rafale have a sead weapon ? and how did he get a gps fix for the aasm bomb
By: - 9th January 2010 at 23:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hello everyone, i've really been looking at this and I can't see that there is any evidence of Rafale actually rocking the fighter world in the Al Dahfra shoot out.None of the professional journos are staking their reputations on it, so its just down to a translation of a french report from a Rafale pilot who gives some information about what he thought happened.
None of this is backed up by any other sources so what am i to think?:confused:
How many of these threads do we need? :rolleyes:
By: - 9th January 2010 at 23:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This time, the Rafale won. We can speculate or not about the RoE, but would the Typhoon have won, it wouldn't have surprised as much, it wouldn't have brought as much scepticism.
What?
Wanna bet on that one TMor? ;)
It heavily depends on were we are discussing the issue, we just have to go to, well, air defence net, avion militaires net, etc, and if the reactions to the severall exercises between RAFALES and the Hellenic Air Force, or that most famous "Rafale Eater" Phantom photos are any indication then the "Scepticism level" would have been rampant...
Cheers
Posts: 4,619
By: mrmalaya - 9th January 2010 at 20:39
Hello everyone, i've really been looking at this and I can't see that there is any evidence of Rafale actually rocking the fighter world in the Al Dahfra shoot out.
None of the professional journos are staking their reputations on it, so its just down to a translation of a french report from a Rafale pilot who gives some information about what he thought happened.
None of this is backed up by any other sources so what am i to think?:confused: