Sea Gripen - MERGED

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Profile picture for user Ja Worsley

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20 years 8 months

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I would expect the most likely platforms for sea trials of Sea Gripen, if built, to be Sao Paulo (catapult launch & arrested launch) and Vikramaditya (STOBAR), i.e. ships operated by potential customers.

Swerve: Vikramditya won't be ready before Sea Gripen is and as for Sao Paulo, Sea Gripen isn't designed for cat launches- the new carriers Brazil are looking at have Ski jumps and may even have a similar system for launching planes to what the Russians use- hence me asking my question.

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Swerve: Vikramditya won't be ready before Sea Gripen is and as for Sao Paulo, Sea Gripen isn't designed for cat launches- the new carriers Brazil are looking at have Ski jumps and may even have a similar system for launching planes to what the Russians use- hence me asking my question.

Hmm.. don't wanna "disappoint" you Ja Worsley, but the Sea Gripen is reported to be both STOBAR & CATOBAR compatible.. ;)

According to Peter Nilsson, Gripen’s Vice President of Operational Capabilities, the Sea Gripen is intended for both CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery) as well as STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery) operations. “There will obviously be differences in the MTOW (Maximum Take-Off Weight). In a CATOBAR concept, the Sea Gripen will have a MTOW of 16,500 kilograms and a maximum landing weight of 11,500 kilograms. In a STOBAR concept it depends on the physics of the carrier. Roughly, the payload of fuel and weapons in STOBAR operations will be one-third less than the payload in CATOBAR operations. There will be no differences in ‘bring-back’ capability,” he says.

http://www.stratpost.com/saab-offers-naval-gripen-to-india

Cheers!

Member for

10 years 9 months

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unless brasil buys second hand carriers (from the british for example), they'll need to build some.. and guess what nation can propose them a deal about it (carriers AND aircraft)?

France

If they build a carrier with brasilians, it might be an interesting proposal to put the rafales on it and have the two aircraft air force and navy with many common parts... Swedish AFAIK never have built a carrier (just as they never made a naval aircraft.. so, if such thing goes further, we may just as well be here arguing similarily for the next couple of years... :D

Profile picture for user EdLaw

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unless brasil buys second hand carriers (from the british for example), they'll need to build some.. and guess what nation can propose them a deal about it (carriers AND aircraft)?

France

If they build a carrier with brasilians, it might be an interesting proposal to put the rafales on it and have the two aircraft air force and navy with many common parts... Swedish AFAIK never have built a carrier (just as they never made a naval aircraft.. so, if such thing goes further, we may just as well be here arguing similarily for the next couple of years... :D

No, the Swedes haven't built many aircraft carriers, but the Indians are building carriers, and would be a very attractive option for the Brazilians. The Indian carriers could well end up being adapted for CATOBAR ops, with the attraction of allowing them to use E-2s, Rafales/Super Hornets/Sea Gripens. Even if the Indians themselves don't need CATOBAR capability, it would certainly make their carriers very attractive to some prospective carrier operators. If Brazil, or even Argentina if they ever have the money to return to carrier ownership, need a new carrier in the next twenty years, then the Indian carriers will be pretty attractive.

Profile picture for user J-20 Hotdog

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Who is African???

I never asked if the Russians would buy the Sea Gripen, I asked if they would allow the Sea Gripen to be trialled on their carrier!

As for the Indian deal, I think you might want to keep up with the news abit!

http://defense-studies.blogspot.com/2009/12/saab-offers-sea-gripen.html

no need to be ashamed.

you might want to keep up with the news abit because the Indian order for further MiG-29Ks and new F-35 offers to India came AFTER that announcement ;)

Profile picture for user swerve

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Swerve: Vikramditya won't be ready before Sea Gripen is

It's currently being claimed that she'll be commissioned in 2012. That's at least four years late, but even if optimistic, it's still earlier than Sea Gripen could be ready for carrier trials. So far, Sea Gripen exists only on paper & in CAD drawings.

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According to Peter Nilsson, Gripen’s Vice President of Operational Capabilities, the Sea Gripen is intended for both CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take Off But Arrested Recovery) as well as STOBAR (Short Take Off But Arrested Recovery) operations. “There will obviously be differences in the MTOW (Maximum Take-Off Weight). In a CATOBAR concept, the Sea Gripen will have a MTOW of 16,500 kilograms and a maximum landing weight of 11,500 kilograms. In a STOBAR concept it depends on the physics of the carrier. Roughly, the payload of fuel and weapons in STOBAR operations will be one-third less than the payload in CATOBAR operations. There will be no differences in ‘bring-back’ capability,” he says.

Interesting. This implies an external payload of 5t CATOBAR and only 2T STOBAR (both with full internal fuel). So STOBAR won't be very useful for strike, which is as expected really.

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11 years 4 months

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Interesting. This implies an external payload of 5t CATOBAR and only 2T STOBAR (both with full internal fuel). So STOBAR won't be very useful for strike, which is as expected really.

That is if you intend to launch with full internal fuel. You can always load up on bombs and guns, and then go AAR before heading for the mission.

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10 years 9 months

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and to refuel up there you use what aircraft?

With STOBAR, the only one you'd have that may take off from the carrier would be the gripen, and you can't load it heavily or it will become really wet in there... ;)

@ Ponen

well, ok, these do carry aircraft... :D

For carrier building, yes, India do build (or rebuild would be more correct) carriers, but, again, unless I'm mistaken, they're still learning about it. The french made a few of these during the last century and even if the partnership with UK was done for the 2nd carrier, they are pretty able to make new ones.

Anyway, what I was saying was: which country can propose the carrier and the aircraft to put on it?

US, Russia (technically at least) and France... and, between the two "serious" possibilities, it seems to me that France has the edge right now (pretty important partnership with brasil at this moment)

Profile picture for user swerve

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15 years 3 months

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Interesting. This implies an external payload of 5t CATOBAR and only 2T STOBAR (both with full internal fuel). So STOBAR won't be very useful for strike, which is as expected really.

Let's go through the figures:

Assume 7.5 tons empty weight
Max T/O 16.5
Difference 9.0
1/3 less = 6.0
STOBAR T/O = 13.5
Internal fuel = 3.36

That leaves 2.6 tons for external loads. Not a lot, true - but enough for full internal fuel, a buddy refuelling pack & 2 tons of external fuel, allowing at least 3 tons (how much will it need for take off, refuelling, reserves & landing?) to transfer to other Gripens after they take-off. Not ideal, but you should be able to send off a fully laden Gripen for every two take-offs or so.

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11 years 4 months

Posts: 155

and to refuel up there you use what aircraft?

With STOBAR, the only one you'd have that may take off from the carrier would be the gripen, and you can't load it heavily or it will become really wet in there... ;)

India do have the Ilyushin IL-76MD, and that's capable of AAR AFAIK. Even if it seems the A330-MRTT was cancelled for now, I'm sure India will have aerial refueling capabilities by the time their carriers are ready and the Sea Gripen delivered.

There's also the option of buddy-refueling. Although not an option for existing Gripen, this has been mentioned as a capability the Gripen NG might have.

This unless you are happy with 2000 kg payload. This is the same as the internal load of a F-35, which many argue is quite enough for a strike mission. Any of these loads would cause a lot of damage...
- 2 RBS-15
- 4 GBU-16 or similar
- 8 GBU-12 or similar
- 16 GBU-39 or similar

Edit: Swerve, you beat me. Pretty much the same point...

Profile picture for user swerve

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For carrier building, yes, India do build (or rebuild would be more correct) carriers, but, again, unless I'm mistaken, they're still learning about it. The french made a few of these during the last century and even if the partnership with UK was done for the 2nd carrier, they are pretty able to make new ones.

India isn't rebuilding any carriers. The rebuilding is being done in Russia. India is currently building a completely new carrier, from scratch, planned to launch later this year.

The new Indian carrier is being built with assistance from Fincantieri, which has built two STOVL carriers so far, one of them very recently.

All it lacks is catapults, & France has always imported them, either from the UK or USA. The Indian navy has operated catapult equipped carriers before, though not for 20 years, so experience is not current.

Profile picture for user swerve

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15 years 3 months

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India do have the Ilyushin IL-76MD, and that's capable of AAR AFAIK. Even if it seems the A330-MRTT was cancelled for now, I'm sure India will have aerial refueling capabilities by the time their carriers are ready and the Sea Gripen delivered..

One drawback of this - land-based AAR can't be relied on for supporting carrier operations. One of the main reasons for buying a carrier is to be able to operate out of range of land bases.

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10 years 9 months

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One drawback of this - land-based AAR can't be relied on for supporting carrier operations. One of the main reasons for buying a carrier is to be able to operate out of range of land bases.

agreeed on that one.. what's the purpose of having a carrier if it has to stay more or less in front of its harbour? if your tanker has to come from your territory, it can do so with fighters by its side as well, and you don't need carriers anymore... if you have to go to refuel your fighters on the other side of the planet, you'd have to organize a raid like the one the british did to bomb the port stanley runway in 1982... not very efficient way to conduct carrier operations... ;)

Profile picture for user MadRat

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Let's go through the figures:
hat leaves 2.6 tons for external loads. Not a lot, true - but enough for full internal fuel, a buddy refuelling pack & 2 tons of external fuel, allowing at least 3 tons (how much will it need for take off, refuelling, reserves & landing?) to transfer to other Gripens after they take-off. Not ideal, but you should be able to send off a fully laden Gripen for every two take-offs or so.

Or commission a suitable straight wing asset that can do the job for 2-3 aircraft at a time. You're still going to need straight wing assets for setting up the offboard radar pickets and cargo hauling. Helicopters can only do so much of those duties.

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Or commission a suitable straight wing asset that can do the job for 2-3 aircraft at a time. You're still going to need straight wing assets for setting up the offboard radar pickets and cargo hauling. Helicopters can only do so much of those duties.

On that note - has the C-2 ever been trialled or used as a tanker for the USN?

Profile picture for user Hammer

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15 years 7 months

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Allow me a couple of notes on this subject here....

TooCool: Take care, the Brazilian Air Force order still has not been announced, much less signed... So there will only be synergy between the FAB and the Brazilian Navy IF THE Rafale is eventually ordered... On the other side if Gripen NG is chosen the Sea Gripen becomes the synergetic aircraft, not the Rafale M.

You all seem to be forceting about the recent aproximation of the Brazilian Navy and the Chinese, specially around the carrier operations theme. I wouldn`t leave the Chinese out of the list of countries that could supply Brazil with a (substancially cheaper!) new carrier vessel...

It would be very natural to have Sea Gripen test it`s catapult capabilities on the refurbished São Paulo. I`d love to see it be done. On the other hand such testing with the Rafale would probably require that the new carriers are available, surely pushing this event to a much later date.

Coments?

Regards Hammer

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10 years 9 months

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I don't consider it signed, don't worry ;)

but making a naval aircraft is something that has to be learned. Rafale, again, has a lot in common between the two versions (much more so than the F-35 A and C for example).

For testing the rafale from the Sao Paulo you'd need to reinstall the deck extensions the french used while they were testing the rafale on it (it was named Foch back then), the catapult on it being a little too short or something like that.

Anyway, believing that if one can make a terrestrial aircraft, one can transform it to a well performing navalised one for cheap is just wishful thinking ;)

Profile picture for user Sign

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I don't consider it signed, don't worry ;)

but making a naval aircraft is something that has to be learned. Rafale, again, has a lot in common between the two versions (much more so than the F-35 A and C for example).

For testing the rafale from the Sao Paulo you'd need to reinstall the deck extensions the french used while they were testing the rafale on it (it was named Foch back then), the catapult on it being a little too short or something like that.

Anyway, believing that if one can make a terrestrial aircraft, one can transform it to a well performing navalised one for cheap is just wishful thinking ;)

If you read up anything of the stuff in this thread you realise you kind of out there...
the recuirements of a navy is allmost fullfilled of the gripen today, so its not as big step as you fantise about.