By: Distiller
- 31st January 2010 at 12:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a national understanding in Russia, which developed in the last three years, that hitech is the only way forward (Vladimir Putin is very specific here: aerospace, nano-technology incl semiconductors, energy), and they really put their money were their mouth is. So, yes, T-50 is a key national priority and not just a "defence programme" like the ATF or JSF is to the U.S., and Russia will push it with everything they have. As a national priority it is not a question of money. Plus they use it to give a future to a new generation of engineers, which is equally - if not more! - important than having a new toy for the VVS.
I actually don't expect the principal mold-shape to change, like we've for example seen with the YF-22 > F-22A. It looks right (which the YF-22 didn't). And, yes, I think this is the standard manned offensive and defensive air superiority fighter/destroyer Russia will fly till at least 2040. There will be no other "small" model, at least not manned.
By: talltower
- 31st January 2010 at 12:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maiden Flight for Russia’s New Stealth Fighter
Article from Defense Update
Maiden Flight for Russia’s New Stealth Fighter
Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA made a successful 47-minute maiden flight on Friday 29 January 2010, taking off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur Airfield in Russia’s Far East, adjacent to the manufacturer’s site.
The aircraft was flown by Sukhoi test-pilot Sergey Bogdan. Sukhoi, the aircraft designer is expecting to complete flight testing and enter serial manufacturing by 2015, anticipating orders for at least 400 aircraft for the Russian and Indian Air Forces.
The flight went successfully meeting all its assigned tasks. “In the course of the flight we’ve conducted initial evaluation of the aircraft controllability, engine performance and primary systems operation. The aircraft had retracted and extracted the landing gear. The aircraft performed excellent at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot”, - said Sergey Bogdan.
After the initial test flights in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the next test flight program is planned to take place in the Moscow and Astrakhan regions.
The new fifth generation stealth fighter, known by Project Code Name T-50 PAK-FA (Advanced Tactical Frontline Fighter) is designed to compete with the US stealth fighters such as the Lockheed Martin built F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.
Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. India had joined the program in October 2007 and is expected to share 25% of the development cost. India will also be responsible for modifying the aircraft into a two-seater trainer and special-mission fighter, addressing specific Indian Air Force requirements.
The T-50 is expected to have an endurance of 3.3 hours, and a ferry range of 5,500 km. Its armament consists of new air-to-air and anti-ship missiles in addition to two 30mm cannons. The T-50 is powered by a pair of Saturn 117S engines - these modified AL-31F engines produced by NPO are rated at up to 14.5 ton thrust and are now also powering the new Su-35 multirole fighters.
According to the manufacturer, PAK-FA possesses a number of unique features, compared to previous generation fighters, as it is combining the functionality of both attack aircraft and fighter plane. The 5th generation fighter is equipped with brand-new avionics suite, integrating “electronic pilot” functionality, as well as an advanced phased-array antenna radar. This significantly decreases pilot load, allowing him to focus upon the completion of tactical missions. New aircraft on-board equipment allows real-time data exchange, not only with ground-based control systems, but also within his flight team. According to AviationWeek, the T-50’s avionics suite to be supplied by the Ramenskoye Design Bureau will include six processors and display suite; the full-scale phased-array radar is under development at the Tikhomirov NIIP design bureau.
Composites application and innovative technologies and aerodynamics of the aircraft, are measures applied to decrease the engine signature, providing for an unprecedented small radar cross-section, in optical and infrared range. This significantly improves combat effectiveness against air and ground targets at any time of the day, in both visible and instrument meteorological conditions.
PAK-FA program advances Russian aeronautics, together with allied industries, reaching an entirely new technological level. These aircraft, together with upgraded 4th generation fighters will define Russian Air Force potential for the next decades. "Sukhoi plans to further elaborate on the PAK-FA program, which will involve our Indian partners. I am strongly convinced that our joint project will excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening the defensive power of Russian and Indian Air Forces, but also gain access to a significant share of the world market”, - said Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi Company Director General commenting on the launch of the flight test program.
By: Otaku
- 31st January 2010 at 12:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Another comparison (accuracy of the dimensions is not certain):
@ djcross, how do you think the T-50's RCS (at least strucurally- as there's much to develop) fares in the side elevation. I mean it's very flat and has those dinky all-moving tail fins, wrt F-22/35. Obviously, from the rear elev. the F-22 comes out top.
By: totoro
- 31st January 2010 at 12:57Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's much closer to 19 meters than 21 meters in length. (without the nose pitot tube, of course)
I maintain that in this comparison the heads of the pilots are not even the same, if anything, raptor's pilot's head should be slightly bigger.
The angle of the planes in pics is pretty close but even if we assume some errors there they cant add overy 5%
Yet, with all that, pak fa is at best 1.075 times longer. (and 10.25 times longer if we assume 0% error on the pic angle, which is more fair as the said error could just easely go in favor of both arguments)
If raptor is 18.9 meters long, like its usually claimed, then i doubt pak fa is longer than 19.37 meters. (at best, if we do assume 5% error in favor of a longer pak fa) it would be 20.3 meters long.
New
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku
- 31st January 2010 at 13:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the utterly amazing things about this aircraft, is how different it looks viewed from various angles:
The top video still is one of my favourites!!:cool:;):diablo:
By: djcross
- 31st January 2010 at 15:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Another comparison (accuracy of the dimensions is not certain):
@ djcross, how do you think the T-50's RCS (at least strucurally- as there's much to develop) fares in the side elevation. I mean it's very flat and has those dinky all-moving tail fins, wrt F-22/35. Obviously, from the rear elev. the F-22 comes out top.
It depends on the integration of RAM and small details in the production configuration. Clearly, the first T-50 used some non-stealthy details from SU-30 (such as air data, total temperature, angle of attack, communications antennas, and inlet blow-in louvers) that I would expect to see removed entirely or replaced with stealthy details on the production airplane. Side sector RCS is always larger than front or rear sector, but side sector RCS will be many orders of magnitude less than SU-30. Patriot and MEADS detection ranges will be significantly reduced.
By: totoro
- 31st January 2010 at 15:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing that seems clear to me is that Pak fa is designed for slightly higher speeds than raptor (nose and wing sweep angle) and is more akin to original YF22 design in that regard.
New
Posts: 38
By: Black_Cat
- 31st January 2010 at 16:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great to hear...... also, noticible that those who used to scream that bankrup & stupid Russians won't be able to make it before 2015-2020....
let me put a bit on PAK-FA....
What it is ----
1) It is Sukhoi's answer to capture the light/medium & heavy fighter market with a single aircraft!
2) It has fairly beaten both F-22(air-superiority) & F-35(bomb truck) in their own two respective roles as PAK-FA have combined the two into one single airframe, without compromising on either! Brilliant!
What it is not ----
1) Its not a "stealth" a/c like F-22 or F-35, but just a "LO" a/c thats meant for combat....
2) Like all other Russian combat a/c, they are economically viable and meant for battle conditions unlike competition that is costs heaven and may require more attention than a massage for ur Girlfriend!
By: sferrin
- 31st January 2010 at 16:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A golden rule says that you should either test a new airframe with old engines or a new engine in an old airframe.
Quite a lot of designs have performed their first flights with legacy engines. Typhoon flew with RB199s, Rafale A with F404s, even Su-24 had something different than series Al-21F engines (don't know what it was, some Tumansky type)..
Blackbird with J-75s
F-104 with J65s
F-14 with TF-30s (unfortunately).
On the other hand there have been some that flew with new engines initially. XB-70, F-15, YF-22 and YF-23 (BOTH with TWO new types of engines), YF-17.
By: Aspis
- 31st January 2010 at 16:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a national understanding in Russia, which developed in the last three years, that hitech is the only way forward (Vladimir Putin is very specific here: aerospace, nano-technology incl semiconductors, energy), and they really put their money were their mouth is. So, yes, T-50 is a key national priority and not just a "defence programme" like the ATF or JSF is to the U.S., and Russia will push it with everything they have. As a national priority it is not a question of money. Plus they use it to give a future to a new generation of engineers, which is equally - if not more! - important than having a new toy for the VVS.
I think Putin has done a great job for Russia. What will be interesting to see, is , apart the costs, who else apart India will be politically "OK" to be offered the PAK FA.
New
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku
- 31st January 2010 at 17:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: BlauerMax
- 31st January 2010 at 17:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Putin has done a great job for Russia. What will be interesting to see, is , apart the costs, who else apart India will be politically "OK" to be offered the PAK FA.
I think the PAK-FA would be really great for the Aussies. Its stealthy, twin-engined and it has the range thats needed for Australia's vast territory.
Its also a good replacement as a strike aircraft for the F-111 because of its range and large internal weapons bay.
The other outcome is Japan will definately begin lobbying for the F-22 again and failing that I hope they build the ATD-X.
By: Aspis
- 31st January 2010 at 18:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the PAK-FA would be really great for the Aussies. Its stealthy, twin-engined and it has the range thats needed for Australia's vast territory.
Its also a good replacement as a strike aircraft for the F-111 because of its range and large internal weapons bay.
The other outcome is Japan will definately begin lobbying for the F-22 again and failing that I hope they build the ATD-X.
Sure, the fuel and payload make it perfect for very long range interceptions, the Australians should love it. But,
1) Are the Australians willing to depend on Russia as provider?
2) Are the Russians willing to give to Australians, knowing that it would very easily be... thorougly examined by the Americans and British?
Ok, cold war is over, but some reservations still exist when it comes to top weapons.
I know someone else that would love to get PAK Fa. Iran! But unless the political situation changes dramatical there, i don't see Russia selling it.
By: HAWX ace
- 31st January 2010 at 18:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure, the fuel and payload make it perfect for very long range interceptions, the Australians should love it. But,
1) Are the Australians willing to depend on Russia as provider?
2) Are the Russians willing to give to Australians, knowing that it would very easily be... thorougly examined by the Americans and British?
Ok, cold war is over, but some reservations still exist when it comes to top weapons.
I know someone else that would love to get PAK Fa. Iran! But unless the political situation changes dramatical there, i don't see Russia selling it.
The iranians are developing their own stealth fighter :p
By: Aspis
- 31st January 2010 at 18:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The iranians are developing their own stealth fighter :p
Yes, well, for trainner/light attack it should be fine. But when every other in the region is getting new aircrafts, that with the shaeqeh (that looks like a cross-breed between F5 and F18) won't cut it.
Specially in case those Israelis will be interested in a bombing operation, you can't expect to rely entirely on SAMs to stop them.
By: fearun
- 31st January 2010 at 18:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a national understanding in Russia, which developed in the last three years, that hitech is the only way forward (Vladimir Putin is very specific here: aerospace, nano-technology incl semiconductors, energy), and they really put their money were their mouth is. So, yes, T-50 is a key national priority and not just a "defence programme" like the ATF or JSF is to the U.S., and Russia will push it with everything they have. As a national priority it is not a question of money. Plus they use it to give a future to a new generation of engineers, which is equally - if not more! - important than having a new toy for the VVS.
I actually don't expect the principal mold-shape to change, like we've for example seen with the YF-22 > F-22A. It looks right (which the YF-22 didn't). And, yes, I think this is the standard manned offensive and defensive air superiority fighter/destroyer Russia will fly till at least 2040. There will be no other "small" model, at least not manned.
Very nice post indeed and I think we will see in near future that what you said about hi-tech is acurate but I disagree that there will be no small model. Russia is the second biggest arms exporter (sometimes first) and their biggest export is fighter jets more accurately light multirole fighters which was Mig-29 for last 3 decades. I dont think russia will just give it up. I think that as US did russia will also produce a lighter fighter but I dont think it will be another version of T-50. Since Superjet-100 and Yak-130 are ready and PAK-FA made its maiden flight, UAC companies are capable of taking care of themselves and Russian government is free to fund Mig. I wouldnt be surprised if Mig is now working on LMFS and UAV at the same time. It is a big market, one Russia wouldnt want to lose.
Posts: 4,674
By: Distiller - 31st January 2010 at 12:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is a national understanding in Russia, which developed in the last three years, that hitech is the only way forward (Vladimir Putin is very specific here: aerospace, nano-technology incl semiconductors, energy), and they really put their money were their mouth is. So, yes, T-50 is a key national priority and not just a "defence programme" like the ATF or JSF is to the U.S., and Russia will push it with everything they have. As a national priority it is not a question of money. Plus they use it to give a future to a new generation of engineers, which is equally - if not more! - important than having a new toy for the VVS.
I actually don't expect the principal mold-shape to change, like we've for example seen with the YF-22 > F-22A. It looks right (which the YF-22 didn't). And, yes, I think this is the standard manned offensive and defensive air superiority fighter/destroyer Russia will fly till at least 2040. There will be no other "small" model, at least not manned.
Posts: 493
By: talltower - 31st January 2010 at 12:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maiden Flight for Russia’s New Stealth Fighter
Article from Defense Update
Maiden Flight for Russia’s New Stealth Fighter
Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA made a successful 47-minute maiden flight on Friday 29 January 2010, taking off from Komsomolsk-on-Amur Airfield in Russia’s Far East, adjacent to the manufacturer’s site.
The aircraft was flown by Sukhoi test-pilot Sergey Bogdan. Sukhoi, the aircraft designer is expecting to complete flight testing and enter serial manufacturing by 2015, anticipating orders for at least 400 aircraft for the Russian and Indian Air Forces.
The flight went successfully meeting all its assigned tasks. “In the course of the flight we’ve conducted initial evaluation of the aircraft controllability, engine performance and primary systems operation. The aircraft had retracted and extracted the landing gear. The aircraft performed excellent at all flight-test points scheduled for today. It is easy and comfortable to pilot”, - said Sergey Bogdan.
After the initial test flights in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, the next test flight program is planned to take place in the Moscow and Astrakhan regions.
The new fifth generation stealth fighter, known by Project Code Name T-50 PAK-FA (Advanced Tactical Frontline Fighter) is designed to compete with the US stealth fighters such as the Lockheed Martin built F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II.
Russia has been developing its newest fighter since the 1990s. India had joined the program in October 2007 and is expected to share 25% of the development cost. India will also be responsible for modifying the aircraft into a two-seater trainer and special-mission fighter, addressing specific Indian Air Force requirements.
The T-50 is expected to have an endurance of 3.3 hours, and a ferry range of 5,500 km. Its armament consists of new air-to-air and anti-ship missiles in addition to two 30mm cannons. The T-50 is powered by a pair of Saturn 117S engines - these modified AL-31F engines produced by NPO are rated at up to 14.5 ton thrust and are now also powering the new Su-35 multirole fighters.
According to the manufacturer, PAK-FA possesses a number of unique features, compared to previous generation fighters, as it is combining the functionality of both attack aircraft and fighter plane. The 5th generation fighter is equipped with brand-new avionics suite, integrating “electronic pilot” functionality, as well as an advanced phased-array antenna radar. This significantly decreases pilot load, allowing him to focus upon the completion of tactical missions. New aircraft on-board equipment allows real-time data exchange, not only with ground-based control systems, but also within his flight team. According to AviationWeek, the T-50’s avionics suite to be supplied by the Ramenskoye Design Bureau will include six processors and display suite; the full-scale phased-array radar is under development at the Tikhomirov NIIP design bureau.
Composites application and innovative technologies and aerodynamics of the aircraft, are measures applied to decrease the engine signature, providing for an unprecedented small radar cross-section, in optical and infrared range. This significantly improves combat effectiveness against air and ground targets at any time of the day, in both visible and instrument meteorological conditions.
PAK-FA program advances Russian aeronautics, together with allied industries, reaching an entirely new technological level. These aircraft, together with upgraded 4th generation fighters will define Russian Air Force potential for the next decades. "Sukhoi plans to further elaborate on the PAK-FA program, which will involve our Indian partners. I am strongly convinced that our joint project will excel its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will not only allow strengthening the defensive power of Russian and Indian Air Forces, but also gain access to a significant share of the world market”, - said Mikhail Pogosyan, Sukhoi Company Director General commenting on the launch of the flight test program.
Source: http://www.defense-update.com/newscast/0110/news/PAK-FA_300110.html
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku - 31st January 2010 at 12:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Another comparison (accuracy of the dimensions is not certain):
@ djcross, how do you think the T-50's RCS (at least strucurally- as there's much to develop) fares in the side elevation. I mean it's very flat and has those dinky all-moving tail fins, wrt F-22/35. Obviously, from the rear elev. the F-22 comes out top.
Posts: 1,010
By: totoro - 31st January 2010 at 12:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's much closer to 19 meters than 21 meters in length. (without the nose pitot tube, of course)
I maintain that in this comparison the heads of the pilots are not even the same, if anything, raptor's pilot's head should be slightly bigger.
The angle of the planes in pics is pretty close but even if we assume some errors there they cant add overy 5%
Yet, with all that, pak fa is at best 1.075 times longer. (and 10.25 times longer if we assume 0% error on the pic angle, which is more fair as the said error could just easely go in favor of both arguments)
If raptor is 18.9 meters long, like its usually claimed, then i doubt pak fa is longer than 19.37 meters. (at best, if we do assume 5% error in favor of a longer pak fa) it would be 20.3 meters long.
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku - 31st January 2010 at 13:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One of the utterly amazing things about this aircraft, is how different it looks viewed from various angles:
The top video still is one of my favourites!!:cool:;):diablo:
Posts: 5,396
By: djcross - 31st January 2010 at 15:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It depends on the integration of RAM and small details in the production configuration. Clearly, the first T-50 used some non-stealthy details from SU-30 (such as air data, total temperature, angle of attack, communications antennas, and inlet blow-in louvers) that I would expect to see removed entirely or replaced with stealthy details on the production airplane. Side sector RCS is always larger than front or rear sector, but side sector RCS will be many orders of magnitude less than SU-30. Patriot and MEADS detection ranges will be significantly reduced.
Posts: 1,010
By: totoro - 31st January 2010 at 15:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
One thing that seems clear to me is that Pak fa is designed for slightly higher speeds than raptor (nose and wing sweep angle) and is more akin to original YF22 design in that regard.
Posts: 38
By: Black_Cat - 31st January 2010 at 16:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great to hear...... also, noticible that those who used to scream that bankrup & stupid Russians won't be able to make it before 2015-2020....
let me put a bit on PAK-FA....
What it is ----
1) It is Sukhoi's answer to capture the light/medium & heavy fighter market with a single aircraft!
2) It has fairly beaten both F-22(air-superiority) & F-35(bomb truck) in their own two respective roles as PAK-FA have combined the two into one single airframe, without compromising on either! Brilliant!
What it is not ----
1) Its not a "stealth" a/c like F-22 or F-35, but just a "LO" a/c thats meant for combat....
2) Like all other Russian combat a/c, they are economically viable and meant for battle conditions unlike competition that is costs heaven and may require more attention than a massage for ur Girlfriend!
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 31st January 2010 at 16:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Given how close that is to what you put out there ages ago I'm surprised you're not wearing concrete shoes and feedin' the fishes. :)
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 31st January 2010 at 16:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Blackbird with J-75s
F-104 with J65s
F-14 with TF-30s (unfortunately).
On the other hand there have been some that flew with new engines initially. XB-70, F-15, YF-22 and YF-23 (BOTH with TWO new types of engines), YF-17.
Posts: 971
By: Aspis - 31st January 2010 at 16:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think Putin has done a great job for Russia. What will be interesting to see, is , apart the costs, who else apart India will be politically "OK" to be offered the PAK FA.
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku - 31st January 2010 at 17:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
'Who's the fairest of them all?' -Not you MiG
Posts: 445
By: BlauerMax - 31st January 2010 at 17:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the PAK-FA would be really great for the Aussies. Its stealthy, twin-engined and it has the range thats needed for Australia's vast territory.
Its also a good replacement as a strike aircraft for the F-111 because of its range and large internal weapons bay.
The other outcome is Japan will definately begin lobbying for the F-22 again and failing that I hope they build the ATD-X.
Posts: 971
By: Aspis - 31st January 2010 at 18:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sure, the fuel and payload make it perfect for very long range interceptions, the Australians should love it. But,
1) Are the Australians willing to depend on Russia as provider?
2) Are the Russians willing to give to Australians, knowing that it would very easily be... thorougly examined by the Americans and British?
Ok, cold war is over, but some reservations still exist when it comes to top weapons.
I know someone else that would love to get PAK Fa. Iran! But unless the political situation changes dramatical there, i don't see Russia selling it.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 31st January 2010 at 18:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The iranians are developing their own stealth fighter :p
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/iran/shafaq.htm
Posts: 971
By: Aspis - 31st January 2010 at 18:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, well, for trainner/light attack it should be fine. But when every other in the region is getting new aircrafts, that with the shaeqeh (that looks like a cross-breed between F5 and F18) won't cut it.
Specially in case those Israelis will be interested in a bombing operation, you can't expect to rely entirely on SAMs to stop them.
Posts: 480
By: Wanderlei - 31st January 2010 at 18:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Love those comparison pictures!!
here is couple more from me.
click to ENLARGE
Posts: 1,344
By: paralay - 31st January 2010 at 18:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
:)
Posts: 243
By: Sancho78 - 31st January 2010 at 18:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some more:
Posts: 22
By: fearun - 31st January 2010 at 18:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Very nice post indeed and I think we will see in near future that what you said about hi-tech is acurate but I disagree that there will be no small model. Russia is the second biggest arms exporter (sometimes first) and their biggest export is fighter jets more accurately light multirole fighters which was Mig-29 for last 3 decades. I dont think russia will just give it up. I think that as US did russia will also produce a lighter fighter but I dont think it will be another version of T-50. Since Superjet-100 and Yak-130 are ready and PAK-FA made its maiden flight, UAC companies are capable of taking care of themselves and Russian government is free to fund Mig. I wouldnt be surprised if Mig is now working on LMFS and UAV at the same time. It is a big market, one Russia wouldnt want to lose.