PAK-FA MKI

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Member for

17 years 11 months

Posts: 1,245

Likely modifications over the current prototype, inducted Indian systems and so on. Please opinnions.

Original post

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

Probably Russians will keep the more sensitive technologies to themselves. By sensitive technologies I mean RAM coating, engines, radars, ESM/ECM, IRST, weapons and soft that will be installed on the definitive version of PAK-FA. So, basically, Indians would receive a platform, and equip it with what whey can produce by themselves or in cooperation with third countries like France and Israel. Equipment whey can not develop or buy (like engines, for example), will come from Russia, but not the same as on Russian PAK-FA (for example, Article 117 or AL-31MF-3 instead of Article 20 or whatever will be on serial planes, OLS-35 instead of OLS-50, and so on).

The good news is, India have some experience with avionics, weapons and composites (either in production or in development), and also experience and connection with French and Israeli military industries.

The other good news is, somewhere down the line, probably this same JV will offer the T-50 for the export. And many of the systems could be supplied by Indians, so they will have the portion of this cake. That is, if they will succeed in producing cheap and adequate alternative to Russian systems and materials.

Just my thought.

And by the way. The figure of 0.5 sq.m. RCS that we have heard from the Indian press, most probably refer to the plane, untreated by RAMs. So this is the starting point. If Indians would manage to develop and produce good radar absorbing materials, there is no limit to the "stelthiness" of FGFA.

Member for

15 years 7 months

Posts: 496

Considering the Indian funds used there is no reason to think they would not get fully capable unit. I think that Indians them self will opt for some different components such as ECM and Comms be they domestic, western or form israel.

Suggesting that India will get RAM-less , Non Engined watered down version is just silly. Even US is not that restrictive with regards to F35.

Member for

19 years 9 months

Posts: 720

Probably Russians will keep the more sensitive technologies to themselves. By sensitive technologies I mean RAM coating, engines, radars, ESM/ECM, IRST, weapons and soft that will be installed on the definitive version of PAK-FA. So, basically, Indians would receive a platform, and equip it with what whey can produce by themselves or in cooperation with third countries like France and Israel. Equipment whey can not develop or buy (like engines, for example), will come from Russia, but not the same as on Russian PAK-FA (for example, Article 117 or AL-31MF-3 instead of Article 20 or whatever will be on serial planes, OLS-35 instead of OLS-50, and so on).

The good news is, India have some experience with avionics, weapons and composites (either in production or in development), and also experience and connection with French and Israeli military industries.

The other good news is, somewhere down the line, probably this same JV will offer the T-50 for the export. And many of the systems could be supplied by Indians, so they will have the portion of this cake. That is, if they will succeed in producing cheap and adequate alternative to Russian systems and materials.

Just my thought.

And by the way. The figure of 0.5 sq.m. RCS that we have heard from the Indian press, most probably refer to the plane, untreated by RAMs. So this is the starting point. If Indians would manage to develop and produce good radar absorbing materials, there is no limit to the "stelthiness" of FGFA.

India gives 50% of the development costs and Russia keeps almost everything! Indians are not that bad in tech business. Example... MKI, Brahmos, A-50 Mainstay and above all Indians does not want Russian version of PAK FA because it does not meet IAF's requirements. Russia may keep some of the core technologies but those will be very few. If India feels that any of the subsystem on-board PAK FA is less capable than other comparative solutions India can get from Israel, Europe, USA or own R&D than the IAF will not accept it. India have access to all the MRCA as well he F-35 so they know about the latest systems through out the world. The PAK FA MKI will be 80% Indian made with few ToT from Russia just like Brahmos. FGFA will be 100% indigenous.

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

Considering the Indian funds used there is no reason to think they would not get fully capable unit.

What funds? Did Sukhoi get a single Indian dollar for the program or prototype what have flown? Indians will probably have 50% in the FGFA, and surely 0% in PAK-FA (unless whey could develop something that Russians need but don't have, and this is very unlikely).

I think that Indians them self will opt for some different components such as ECM and Comms be they domestic, western or form israel.

No doubt. Bat that is not enough for 50-50 partnership they want (as I understood).

Suggesting that India will get RAM-less , Non Engined watered down version is just silly. Even US is not that restrictive with regards to F35.

Actually, US is more restrict. Look at F-22 - it is much more in PAK-FA class than F-35. But even for F-35 US keeps the codes/upgrades/maintenance for itself, and the stealth technologies is export oriented. So India still get the better deal for less money, if interested.

I'm sorry to disappoint people who think that India will get everything that is PAK-FA for some money - it just won't happen.

Member for

14 years 4 months

Posts: 242

FGFA will be 100% indigenous.

You mean NGFA(MCA) and not FGFA here, I believe. PAK-FA MKI = HAL FGFA.

Twin-seater and some avionics might be the only difference in FGFA.

Although PAK-FA looks good but I still believe the design below is best PAK-FA rendering I have seen

http://i45.tinypic.com/6f2gxw.jpg

I still wish that somehow Indian version is a twin seater version of this. The manoeouverability will come from the 3D TVC. Else they can use this rendering for their NGFA(MCA). Wishful thinking though.

Member for

14 years 4 months

Posts: 242


I'm sorry to disappoint people who think that India will get everything that is PAK-FA for some money - it just won't happen.

Unless you are a person in relevant position and authority, only you will be sorry and you will be disappointed in the years to come.

Hardly has the prototype flown and new IDs come up for specific purpose :rolleyes:

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

India gives 50% of the development costs and Russia keeps almost everything!

Talk to me in dollars, please. How much Indian dollars were are in PAK-FA?

Then Russians were in desperate need of money (90's -- first half of 2000's), they didn't receive nothing for the program from India or anybody else. For example, Americans received billions from partner nations + promise of future procurements. On the other hand, there is no Indo-Russian JV yet, nor there is specific agreement or contract, and, therefore, there isn't any Indian money.

Indians are not that bad in tech business. Example... MKI, Brahmos, A-50 Mainstay and above all Indians does not want Russian version of PAK FA because it does not meet IAF's requirements.

I will not enter the discussion about "Indian" MKI, BrahMos or (especially) A-50EI. Don't want to burst this bubble.

You say India don't want Russian PAK-FA, and I say Russia don't want Indian PAK-FA, so it doesn't really matter if India want Russian PAK-FA or not, isn't it? India's choice is between FGFA and something else. FGFA is far better choice then anything else India could have, so there isn't a reason to be upset.

Russia may keep some of the core technologies but those will be very few.

Yes. Namely: radar, IRST, weapons, engines, avionics, ECM/ESM, RAMs, software in their definitive versions.

If India feels that any of the subsystem on-board PAK FA is less capable than other comparative solutions India can get from Israel, Europe, USA or own R&D than the IAF will not accept it. India have access to all the MRCA as well he F-35 so they know about the latest systems through out the world. The PAK FA MKI will be 80% Indian made with few ToT from Russia just like Brahmos. FGFA will be 100% indigenous.

Well, it undoubtedly is a Indian right to say "no" to the systems it doesn't like. And I'm sure Russians won't mind western systems on FGFA. So there is nothing to be worry about.

India doesn't have access to F-35 other then by means of RFI and RFP. It isn't a partner nation, and even them probably don't have the access to all information whey want.

80% of FGFA will be made in India? Any source for that statement? And by the way, that 80% stand for? Cost, number of systems/components, weight?

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

Unless you are a person in relevant position and authority, only you will be sorry and you will be disappointed in the years to come.

Well, only time will tell for sure who is right and who is wrong, isn't it? For now it is just a private opinion, and you are more then welcome to ignore it.

Hardly has the prototype flown and new IDs come up for specific purpose :rolleyes:

It seems you figured it all out. Bravo. :rolleyes:

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 243


Although PAK-FA looks good but I still believe the design below is best PAK-FA rendering I have seen

http://i45.tinypic.com/6f2gxw.jpg


100% agree, but I knew that beast was simply too good to be true! :)

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,538

ZIL

First of all are you Russian ? Pak FA is a project between Indians and Russians. And the level of ToT has always been very high even in outright purchases and with Indians getting 25% of the workshare and giving 50% of the costs the ToT will be full. I asked if you are Russian because I am absolutely tired of people from a certain nation causing trouble flame baiting in every IAF related topic. It is akin to IT terrorism if you ask me.

And let me explain to you one thing, unlike it was rumored earlier, there is not going to be significant differences between PAK FA and FGFA. Basically the FGFA is the Indian name and PAK FA the Russian name. According to the contract that was signed Russians will buy 200+ FGFA(or PAK FA whatever you like) single seaters and 50 FGFA Twin seaters. The Indian Air Force will buy 50 FGFA single seaters and 200 twin seaters. HAL will have 25% work-share of the entire project, 25% stuff going into Russian and Indian fighters will be supplied by HAL and 75% by UAC. Both countries will have separate assembly lines.

So Both India and Russia is going to get the exact same equipment apart from the needed changes for the respective climates and Air Forces (like the Operational Datalink) for IAF.

As for the Investment. India may not have paid a dollar till now because it offically jointed the program only now. But that does not mean anything interms of 50:50 funding, the plane had its first flight but most of the subsystems etc still needs developing and Indian money will be used for it. Who pays first or who pays last does not matter.

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/india-russia-close-to-agreement-on-next.html

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/01/india-to-develop-25-of-fifth-generation.html

If you still want to troll saying Indians are going to get inferior equipment. Be my guest, I request fellow Indian members not to respond to him in that case and get this thread locked.

Member for

18 years 6 months

Posts: 100

The most probable course of acition is India will pull out of failed PAK-FA program in a few years because US will sell them F-35 along with technology transfer. Then Russians will have to build PAK-FA alone what is very risky option. In the end PAK-FA will finish like MiG-MFI.

Member for

19 years 8 months

Posts: 1,838

Pak FA is a project between Indians and Russian

No single indian scientific involved
No single indian coin involved
No single document signed

How so?

Ahh because you read it in a web page?

I asked if you are Russian because

i'm not russian, but i'm not stupid, i don't know about Mr.ZIL though

**

su30MKI = pakfa MKI, that is all

And by the way. The figure of 0.5 sq.m. RCS

This is the real RCS, i just that the indian PR department was dumb enough to show the estimated of the average RCS and not the local RCS in a determined angle

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,538

No single indian scientific involved
No single indian coin involved
No single document signed

How so?

Ahh because you read it in a web page?

i'm not russian, but i'm not stupid, i don't know about Mr.ZIL though

**

su30MKI = pakfa MKI, that is all

This is the real RCS, i just that the indian PR department was dumb enough to show the estimated of the average RCS and not the local RCS in a determined angle

1. Not Involved till now because design was finalized sometime ago. But they will be involved from now on.

2. Atleast read what I said. Will you pay for something before you sign a document ? I don't think even 50% of the projected cost of development is spent at this point. By the time it enters serial production funding would be 50% Indian.

3. I think its signed if not it will be very soon.

4. You are just plain wrong, being wrong doesn't always have to mean some one is stupid.

5. India did not get 25% workshare on Su 30 MKI and the MKI is not being used by Russians. PAK FA with Indian made designed components will be.

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 243


su30MKI = pakfa MKI, that is all

Not exactly, it is stated in several, also Russian reports that India will fund half of the project. If it's similar to the Flanker project, Pak Fa should be Russians half (like Su35), FGFA could be Indias half (like Su30MKI).
I agree that Russia started the development alone, but did not have the funds to end it, so without Indian money it would not be done now.
My guess is, they both funded development of the same radar, engine, airframe and possibly even IRST, simply because that reduces the costs of such a NG development and these common parts will be also produced in both countries. This is the best way if they want to keep costs low, production fast, if you have exports in mind too!
The main difference will come mainly in terms of weapons, avionics and of course the twin seat version, although Russia for sure would have developed such a version anyway (trainer, or for export reasons).
India bought MKI as an prefered customer, but this time they are partners, maybe not in development, but in funding and production.

Member for

19 years 8 months

Posts: 1,838

but did not have the funds to end it

Everything you said are just conjectures.

You don't understand, there are a lot of contractors that have worked in a X program, and suddenly some guys that had nothing to do with the program (and never had) will get all the contracts?

Wont happen..never

Russia is doing pure defense research and spending on hardware that only russians will use, missiles, submarines, etc..is a bit more complex than 'they don't have enough money', because money is relative, and the fruits of research and patents from all these programs are meant to produce money for future applications.

Specially the pakfa, that is meant to be exportable

India will get a similar program like the su-30mki

*******

Now, the indian version will be most likely a modified t50, what will be the share for the modification?

This is where i'm confused, because is 50/50, but is most likely the 50/50 of the modification, not of the whole program

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 22

Hello,
I have been reading this forum for a while although this is my very first post here. I dont want to involve in this fight and I should probably say that I am not russian before I state my opinion.

I think India pays for half of Pak fa project since they are involved but it doesnt give them the right to claim 50% of the project and the reason is simple Russians can make a plane like Pak fa if they have money but Indians cannot (no offence intended but truth is truth) Russians have been in this business for long time and they use their knowledge from past so any agreement which gives India more than what they spend would be idiotic from sukhoi's part. So what will happen? IMO Russia will give enough tech to india to produce FGFA or whatever you want to call it and the rest will belong to Russia and they might choose to sell it or not (I think russian economy will determine that)
What is my motivation to claim that Russia will not disclose enough info about radar, engine and some other materials? It is simple if saturn will give all informations about its latest engine, it would be same as giving half of the share of the company to Indians. What many people fail to see is PAK FA or any part of that plane is not just work of last 10 or 15 years Russians can build it because they have a century experience.

Member for

15 years 3 months

Posts: 6,441

Hello,
I have been reading this forum for a while although this is my very first post here. I dont want to involve in this fight and I should probably say that I am not russian before I state my opinion.

I think India pays for half of Pak fa project since they are involved but it doesnt give them the right to claim 50% of the project and the reason is simple Russians can make a plane like Pak fa if they have money but Indians cannot (no offence intended but truth is truth) Russians have been in this business for long time and they use their knowledge from past so any agreement which gives India more than what they spend would be idiotic from sukhoi's part. So what will happen? IMO Russia will give enough tech to india to produce FGFA or whatever you want to call it and the rest will belong to Russia and they might choose to sell it or not (I think russian economy will determine that)
What is my motivation to claim that Russia will not disclose enough info about radar, engine and some other materials? It is simple if saturn will give all informations about its latest engine, it would be same as giving half of the share of the company to Indians. What many people fail to see is PAK FA or any part of that plane is not just work of last 10 or 15 years Russians can build it because they have a century experience.

Hi Fearun and welcome in.

I think your're pretty much correct here. Good posting.
The R&D from various Russian enterprise like NPO SATURN, NIIP etc etc, all the latest gadged are if you will the results from Russian blood, sweat and money over a period of time, well long before the fall of Soviet.

It would indeed be silly to just give away any secretive R&D for some billion dollar.
The Russian R&D are just the same as their precious oil, gass, rare minerals reserve.
This is important to remember.

Thanks

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

ZIL

First of all are you Russian ? Pak FA is a project between Indians and Russians. And the level of ToT has always been very high even in outright purchases and with Indians getting 25% of the workshare and giving 50% of the costs the ToT will be full. I asked if you are Russian because I am absolutely tired of people from a certain nation causing trouble flame baiting in every IAF related topic. It is akin to IT terrorism if you ask me.


I'm not from Pakistan, if that is what you had in mind.

Again, I'm asking what was the Indian contribution to the PAK-FA program until now? Was it 0 (zero) - yes or no? If yes, why people insist on calling PAK-FA an Indo-Russian project?

So, there is nothing Indian in PAK-FA.

But, there could be a joint venture between India and Russia resulting in FGFA, if all necessary papers would be signed. The question of work sharing, transfer of technologies, funding, license production etc. will be detailed there, after it have been signed. I assume it will be 50-50 cooperation for the Indian and (eventually) export market.

And let me explain to you one thing, unlike it was rumored earlier, there is not going to be significant differences between PAK FA and FGFA. Basically the FGFA is the Indian name and PAK FA the Russian name. According to the contract that was signed Russians will buy 200+ FGFA(or PAK FA whatever you like) single seaters and 50 FGFA Twin seaters. The Indian Air Force will buy 50 FGFA single seaters and 200 twin seaters. HAL will have 25% work-share of the entire project, 25% stuff going into Russian and Indian fighters will be supplied by HAL and 75% by UAC. Both countries will have separate assembly lines.

So Both India and Russia is going to get the exact same equipment apart from the needed changes for the respective climates and Air Forces (like the Operational Datalink) for IAF.


You are talking about signed contract. What contract is it? As far as I know, the only paper that have been signed lately and have some distant relationship to the FGFA is the strategical cooperation agreement for the next decade. Before that there also was an agreement on joint development, proposed in 2007, but India didn't signed it yet. India wasn't interested in earlier Russian suggestions for joint development either. But now, somehow, PAK-FA became Indo-Russian fighter...

About deference in Russian and Indian versions. I do believe Russians will not share whey latest sensitive technologies whey have developed for themselves. Nobody will. It's either export version for India, or Indian developed systems and materials (by Indian organizations or in cooperation with other countries). Percents have no actual meaning here.

As for the Investment. India may not have paid a dollar till now because it offically jointed the program only now. But that does not mean anything interms of 50:50 funding, the plane had its first flight but most of the subsystems etc still needs developing and Indian money will be used for it. Who pays first or who pays last does not matter.

The plane's prototype already flew. The radar's prototypes was seen on MAKS-2009, and whey are undergoing tests. Intermediate engines fly on the flying laboratory T-10M-10. ECM, datalinks, processors, IFF systems, soft will be Russian without a doubt. Modernization of aviation plants and design bureaus are in progress. All the Sukhoi and UAC need now is some government money in form of contracts for Su-35/Su-34/etc. and contracts for PAK-FA when it will be ready. So that ship has sailed. Still, Indian financial contribution will be very helpful, but it won't buy a share of Russian market or sensitive technologies - only share of Indian and export sales.

If you still want to troll saying Indians are going to get inferior equipment. Be my guest, I request fellow Indian members not to respond to him in that case and get this thread locked.

I'm sorry to hear you think I'm trolling. If i have seen it before, I probably wouldn't write so a lengthy answer. :(

Member for

14 years 2 months

Posts: 96

This is the real RCS, i just that the indian PR department was dumb enough to show the estimated of the average RCS and not the local RCS in a determined angle

Why do you think it's a real RCS? And if it is, is it for the PAK-FA or FGFA?

Member for

14 years 5 months

Posts: 3,538

ZIL & Over G. I will keep you updated about Indian contribution in PAK FA.