Japan hunts intruding submarine amid alarm over China

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http://news.inq7.net/breaking/index.php?index=3&story_id=17795


Japan hunts intruding submarine amid alarm over China

Updated 11:22am (Mla time) Nov 11, 2004
Agence France-Presse

TOKYO, Japan -- Japan's navy tracked a submarine that intruded into its waters for a second day Thursday amid alarm in Tokyo that the incident was a show of strength by growing competitor China.

Neither Japan nor China has officially commented on the nationality of the submarine, which spent about two hours in Japanese waters Wednesday near the southern island of Okinawa before a chase on the high sea.

The Chinese foreign ministry denied all knowledge of the incident in its first response to the drama. "We don't know. We are not aware of this situation," the ministry said.

The Japanese navy trailed the submarine with two destroyers and a surveillance airplane throughout the night, a Defense Agency spokesman said.

"We are still chasing outside Japanese waters," said Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda, the government spokesman.

He declined to identify the location of the hunt but said the submarine was zigzagging.

Asked by a reporter why Japan could not identify the vessel's nationality a day into the chase, Hosoda said: "Because it's under water."

But judging from its cruising sound, the Defense Agency believes the vessel is a Chinese navy Han-type nuclear submarine, the mass-circulation Yomiuri Shimbun and Jiji Press news agency said.

. . .

Original post

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Asked by a reporter why Japan could not identify the vessel's nationality a day into the chase, Hosoda said: "Because it's under water."

I don't know about you guys, but I found this incredibly funny :D

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Some stuff from CDF:

Suspected to be a Han..

Japan's navy gives chase to suspicious sub

The government ordered the Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF) to chase an unidentified submarine that was spotted in Japan's territorial waters around southwestern Okinawa Prefecture Wednesday morning, a government spokesman said.

The submarine subsequently left Japan's territorial waters, but the MSDF remains on full alert in case it intrudes into territorial waters again, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda told a news conference.

"It's extremely regrettable. We need to clarify the purpose of the intrusion and the nationality of the submarine among other questions," Hosoda said.

Crewmembers of an MSDF P3C anti-submarine patrol aircraft spotted the submarine in seas off Miyako and Ishigaki islands, southwestern Okinawa Prefecture, early Wednesday morning. At 8:45 a.m., Defense Agency Director General Yoshinori Ono ordered the MSDF to chase the submarine after receiving approval from Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi.

Following the order, the MSDF dispatched more P3C aircraft and a destroyer to the area. However, Hosoda said the MSDF did not issue any warning to the submarine.

Even through the submarine left Japan's territorial waters, the P3C aircraft is continuing to pursue the vessel. The nationality of the submarine has not yet been confirmed.

The Defense Agency chief issued the order under Article 82 of the SDF Law. This is the second time that Japan issued such an order following one issued in March 1999 when a North Korean spy ship entered Japan's territorial waters in the Sea of Japan.

The clause allows the Defense Agency chief to order SDF, with permission from the prime minister, to go into action in the sea to keep law and order in cases of crises the Japan Coast Guard cannot cope with on its own. (Mainichi Shimbun, Japan, Nov. 10, 2004)

Thursday November 11, 8:46 AM
Japan still searching for suspected Chinese sub

AFP

Japan's search for a submarine that entered its waters near a disputed gas field entered a second day as media reports quoted defence officials as saying the vessel was most likely Chinese.

The Japanese navy was still trailing the submarine with two destroyers and a surveillance airplane after continuing the chase through the night, a defence agency spokesman said.

"We do not know when the chase will be stopped," he said, declining to say where the submarine was or in which direction it was heading.

The submarine was detected early Wednesday in Japanese waters near islands disputed with China about 300 kilometers (180 miles) southwest of Okinawa.

The southern island of Okinawa is home to a major US military base.

Judging from its cruising sound, the Defence Agency believes the vessel is a Chinese navy Han-type nuclear submarine, the mass-circulation Yomiuri Shimbun and Jiji Press news agency said.

The incident is expected to deal further damage to already sour diplomatic relations between the two Asian neighbours.

Nov 11, 2004
Submarine sparks Japanese navy alert
Brief incursion by unidentified sub triggers rare mobilisation
Tokyo - THE Japanese navy was mobilised yesterday for the first time in five years after an unidentified submarine was spotted in waters off Japan.

The intrusion was brief and no warning shot was fired, the government said, but the mobilisation was a rare display of the country's military capability, long constrained by a pacifist Constitution.

A navy P3C patrol plane spotted the submarine near the Okinawa islands, 1,600km south-west of Tokyo, in an area close to another series of islets at the heart of a territorial dispute between Japan and China.

A second P3C plane, at least two Japanese destroyers and a helicopter were dispatched to the area, Japanese media said.

Media reports said Tokyo believed the submarine belonged to the Chinese navy, but officials said they were still trying to confirm its nationality.

'It is regrettable. It is certainly not a good thing that an unidentified submarine entered our country's territorial waters,' Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi told reporters.

Media reports said that the order to the navy to mobilise - giving it powers to fire in self-defence or forcibly change the submarine's course - was issued more than three hours after the intruder was spotted and after it had left Japanese waters.

It is possible the submarine was having trouble, the Kyodo news agency said, quoting navy officials.

The last time the navy was mobilised was in 1999 when a suspected North Korean spy ship violated Japanese waters.

The Japan Coast Guard is in charge of the security of the country's coastline and waters, and the navy is ordered into action only when the government perceives a threat to lives or a security beyond the powers of the Coast Guard to handle.

Japan's top government spokesman Hiroyuki Hosoda said a Japanese navy patrol plane continued to track the submarine.

Media reports said it was heading towards the Chinese coast.

Relations between China and Japan are chilly.

Among other thorny issues, the two countries have a long-running dispute over the Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea, 200km away from where the submarine was found.

The islands, known in China as the Diaoyu Islands, are controlled by Japan but also claimed by Taiwan.

Yesterday's incident comes just two weeks after Japan hosted an international maritime exercise aimed at stopping the spread of weapons of mass destruction. -- REUTERS

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The submarine might be in mechanical trouble.

According to a major Chinese newspaper published in the U.S. and chinesenewsnet.com, Japanese found a Chinese submarine rescue vessel and a tugboat in that area several days ago, which was a ominous sign that a troubled Chinese submarine was nearby.

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According to a major Chinese newspaper published in the U.S. and chinesenewsnet.com, Japanese found a Chinese submarine rescue vessel and a tugboat in that area several days ago, which was a ominous sign that a troubled Chinese submarine was nearby.

Yes.......same was mentioned at CDF.

Plus: So what does this mean? The sub is really noisy? JMSDF ASW is superb? Or both?

More:

Sub flees after navy chase

Justin McCurry in Tokyo
Thursday November 11, 2004
The Guardian

The fragile relations between Tokyo and Beijing were further weakened yesterday when a suspected Chinese nuclear submarine was chased out of Japanese territorial waters.
The submarine was detected about 180 miles south-west of Okinawa near the Senkakus, an island chain whose ownership is disputed.

It was the first time the Japanese navy had pursued an unidentified vessel since March 1999, when two suspected North Korean ships were seen off Japan's coast.

The submarine refused demands to surface and identify itself but reportedly left the area after three hours without a shot being fired. It was then chased through international waters by two destroyers and a helicopter.

Beijing would not be drawn on reports that the submarine was Chinese.

The Japanese prime minister, Junichiro Koizumi, described the encounter as "regrettable", adding: "It is certainly not a good thing that a submarine of unknown national origin entered our territorial waters."

Defence officials believe the vessel may have been among two Chinese military vessels spotted in the area this week.

The sighting comes at a delicate time for Sino-Japanese ties. The countries are at odds over gasfields near their maritime border in the East China Sea.

Beijing reacted angrily this week to a Japanese defence agency report saying China could attack if US troops on Okinawa were asked to help Taiwan in a possible conflict.

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I suppose both? Japanese forces are very capable, having their own superb SSKs and lots of ships with ASROC, several helos and of course Orions. I think they're very capable in this field. And the Chinese subs aren't exactly top-notch either.
It could also be luck. There is a fire-exercise area of the Japanese navy very close to that area... The Chinese/Korean sub could have been sent to spy around there. And of course the detecting ships could have been involved in the fire exercises too. I don't know the exact coordinates anymore, but I think it was near Okinawa, a bit north of Sakishima. It was marked by a point, with a circle with a radius of approx 37miles around it. I suppose that makes just enough space for ASROC launches? and of course live firing of the guns. So, the Japanese submarines and planes might have been involved in exercises in that area. And by good luck discover the submarine?!

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in clear waters looking from above wouldnt it be possible to visually see a submarine to a depth of tens of meters ?
the P3 may also have been dropping sonobuoys on exercise and made a contact.

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Or it might have been traveling near the surface intentionally to send a message.

The area around Okinawa is disputed.

Actually, nearly exactly one year ago, a Chinese Type 35 sub surfaced explicitly 40 kms off the Japanese coast during a large US/Japanese joint exercise . It wasn't detected until it broke surface even though it was probably monitoring US and Japanese warships for some time.

But there is no proof positive yet that the vessel in the latest incidence is a chinese sub.

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Maybe the sub belongs to a supervillian organization like SMERSH.

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3745701


Hunt for Red November

"PA"

Japan’s military shadowed an unidentified submarine that entered its territorial waters today but officials said they had not yet figured out what country the intruder was from.

Tokyo put its navy on alert on Wednesday after spotting the submarine off the southern island of Okinawa, and sent a reconnaissance plane and destroyer to follow its movements.

The submarine, which spent two hours in Japanese waters before leaving, was heading north today, Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda.

He refused to confirm reports that defence officials believe the vessel is from China, saying: “We don’t have enough conclusive evidence to make a determination.”

He said it would take some time to identify the submarine because it has not surfaced and did not appear to be heading toward a specific country.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said she didn’t know if the vessel was Chinese.

“The Chinese side is now paying close attention to this issue and I do not approve or encourage any random suppositions on this question,” Zhang said. “As to whether this is a Chinese submarine, I do not know and I cannot provide you any information on this.”

Japanese public broadcaster NHK said defence officials suspected it was a Chinese Han-class nuclear submarine, based on an analysis of the sounds it was making.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,11357156%255E1702,00.html


China 'no clues' over mystery sub
From correspondents in Beijing
November 11, 2004

CHINA today said it knew nothing about a submarine that entered Japanese waters near a disputed gas field sparking a high seas chase, but was watching the issue closely.

"We have seen the reports and are watching the situation closely," foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said.

"Of course the relevant departments are maintaining close contact to watch this incident."

She refused to either confirm or deny it was a Chinese vessel.

The submarine was detected early yesterday in Japanese waters near islands disputed with China about 300 kilometres south-west of Okinawa.

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It looks like it was a repeat of last November where a Ming class surfaced after tracking joint Japanese-American exercises.

http://www.yomiuri.co.jp/newse/20041112wo02.htm


'China may have been flaunting its power'

Hidemichi Katsumata / Yomiuri Shimbun Staff Writer

A senior officer of the Maritime Self-Defense Force has described the intrusion into Japanese waters by a suspected Chinese Navy nuclear submarine Wednesday as a possible attempt to flex China's naval muscles.

In waters off Okinawa Prefecture where the intrusion occurred, the MSDF and the U.S. Navy's 7th Fleet conducted a 10-day joint drill starting late October.

The drill was a rehearsal for operations against submarines in shallow waters. It was a large-scale maneuver, involving a total of five submarines from Japan and the United States.

On Nov. 5, during the drill, two Chinese Navy vessels, one of which was a rescue ship for submarines, were spotted in the Pacific Ocean about 300 kilometers southeast of Tanegashima island, Kagoshima Prefecture, close to the site of the drill.

. . .

In November last year, a Chinese submarine surfaced in the Osumi Strait in Kagoshima Prefecture while Japan-U.S. drills were being held.

But the latest incident was different in that the submarine did not surface at regular intervals for ventilation, which a diesel-powered submarine must do.

A senior Defense Agency official said, "It's highly likely that it's a Han-class nuclear-powered attack submarine," adding, "With the dispatch of a nuclear submarine, the Chinese Navy's operations are in full swing."

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More from CDF:

sub IDed???!!

TOKYO (Reuters) - A submarine that intruded into waters off Japan earlier this week has been identified as Chinese, Japan's top government spokesman Hiroyuki Hosoda said on Friday, adding that Tokyo would protest to Beijing.
Japan mobilized its navy for the first time in five years on Wednesday after the unidentified submarine was spotted near the Okinawa islands, 1,000 miles southwest of Tokyo.

The intrusion was brief and no warning shots were fired, but the mobilization was a rare display of Japan's military capability, long constrained by a pacifist constitution.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.

Japan keeps eye on suspicious sub heading for China

An unidentified submarine that infiltrated Japanese waters on Wednesday moved beyond Japan's air-defense identification zone early on Friday, and continued to weave its way toward China, officials said.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi met with Defense Agency Director General Yoshinori Ono and Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura after a Cabinet meeting on Friday, and decided to have the Maritime Self-Defense Force (MSDF) continue to pursue the vessel with P3C surveillance aircraft to monitor whether it enters Chinese waters.

Japanese government officials are poised to request information from China or launch a protest after confirming the submarine's movements.

"We will take appropriate measures after we are in a position to determine the submarine's country of origin," Machimura said in a news conference on Friday morning.

Judging by the sound made by the sub's propeller, Japanese officials believe it is a Chinese military Han-class nuclear-powered submarine.

The submarine intruded into Japanese waters near the Sakishima Islands in Okinawa on Wednesday, and then headed toward China through the East China Sea.

It was located north of the Senkaku Islands on Friday morning. The MSDF will continue to pursue the submarine up until a line set near Chinese waters. (Mainichi and wire reports, Japan, Nov. 12, 2004)

Japan protests to China over submarine intrusion

TOKYO (AFP) Nov 12, 2004
Japan on Friday summoned a Chinese diplomat after determining that a nuclear submarine that intruded its waters near a disputed gas field and set off a high-seas chase came from its giant neighbor.
"We have judged the submarine to belong to the Chinese navy and it's likely the submarine was a nuclear submarine and through diplomatic channels we are going to protest to China," Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda, the government spokesman, told reporters.

Japan summoned Cheng Yonghua, a minister at the Chinese embassy, to hear Japan's protest at 5:00 pm (0800 GMT), foreign ministry spokesman Hatsuhisa Takashima said.

Japan had earlier refrained from identifying the submarine, which was spotted near gas fields disputed between the Asian powers.

But Japan's defense chief said the country had determined the submarine was Chinese during the two-day search that ended Friday.

"As the submarine navigated north by northwest, we determined it belonged to China as the country possesses nuclear-powered submarines in the area and has thorough knowledge of geographical features of the ocean area," Defense Agency Director General Yoshinori Ono said.

The submarine spent about two hours in Japanese waters Wednesday near the southern island of Okinawa before being chased on the high seas by two Japanese destroyers and a surveillance plane.

Japan had been tracking the sub with wireless microphone buoys dropped from the surveillance plane.

China has said only that it was aware of the reports of the submarine and was "watching the situation closely."

"Of course the relevant departments are maintaining close contact to watch this incident," Chinese foreign ministry spokeswoman Zhang Qiyue said Thursday.

Disputes have been mounting between China and Japan, which are both heavily dependent on energy imports.

China feels deep resentment over Japan's brutal occupation of the country from 1931 to 1945. The feeling has been regularly reinforced by Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi's visits to a Tokyo shrine that honors Japanese war dead including convicted war criminals.

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Those pursuing P-3s better have some fighter escorts as they approach Chinese waters... ;)

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More artys from CDF:

A strategically important area for China
The Asahi Shimbun

The area where the trespassing submarine was first sighted has strategic military and economic significance for China, military experts say.

Defense Agency sources said submarines from various countries often crisscross the waters between the southern tip of Kyushu and the Okinawa islands.

But experts say China would have a strong motive for keeping a submarine in that area.

The waters are vitally important to China, especially if relations should deteriorate with Taiwan.

A U.S. military source said the sub may have been on a reconnaissance mission to monitor a U.S. Navy training exercise in those waters.

If conflict arises between China and Taiwan, Beijing will have to deploy many attack submarines in a short period to prevent a U.S. aircraft carrier battle group from coming to Taipei's rescue.

``It is often said that when China is to conduct a mission in the Taiwan Strait, it will likely have its submarines lay mines in the waters to the east of Taiwan to contain the actions of the United States and Japan,'' said a former high-ranking officer in the MSDF submarine fleet. The latest incident ``may have some connection to that strategy.''

Another former officer in the submarine fleet said Chinese subs have almost never attempted to enter waters around Ishigakijima island because of the complicated nature of the territorial boundaries.

``A navigational map clearly shows how easy it is to cross the boundary,'' the former officer said. ``There is the strong possibility the objective was to try to determine what Japan's response would be.''

The officer said a submarine rescue ship spotted near Tanegashima last week may have been a decoy to draw attention away from the Okinawa islands.

Chinese surface vessels have become more prevalent recently. According to MSDF officials, as of Nov. 5 there have been 33 cases this year of Chinese ships sailing in the East China Sea within Japan's exclusive economic zone or open waters. There were only seven such cases in the same period last year.

Most of the ships this year were believed to be studying natural resources under the seabed.

However, some MSDF officials said the ships may have been mapping the sea floor to develop submarine routes that would allow Chinese vessels to sail from the East China Sea to the Pacific Ocean.(IHT/Asahi: November 12,2004)

Saturday November 13, 1:01 AM
Japan demands Chinese apology after submarine intrusion
AFP

Japan summoned a top Chinese diplomat to demand an apology for the intrusion into its waters of a nuclear submarine, which set off a two-day chase at sea amid mounting tension between the Asian powers.

Japan, which had initially been careful not to blame its giant neighbor for Wednesday's two-hour territorial violation near disputed gas fields, said it determined the submarine belonged to the Chinese navy.

"We made a strong protest and demanded an apology," Japanese Foreign Minister Nobutaka Machimura said after meeting Chinese embassy number two Cheng Yonghua, who was summoned because the ambassador was out of Tokyo.

Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi called the intrusion "extremely regrettable" and said he was awaiting Beijing's response, but argued that the incident should not sour ties further.

"Since Sino-Japan relations are important, we both have to make efforts to prevent a problem like this from creating negative impact," Koizumi told reporters.

Cheng said he would report to Beijing but Machimura quoted him as adding: "'We are investigating this matter so we cannot accept a protest or make an apology.'"

Disputes have been growing between China and Japan, with a leaked report by Japanese defense planners this week charting three scenarios for a Chinese attack -- all involving the southern region near where the submarine intruded.

The two countries, which both rely heavily on energy imports to feed their massive economies, held fruitless talks last month in Beijing about how to demarcate the gas fields.

A 1999 Japanese survey estimated the fields to have 200 billion cubic meters (seven trillion cubic feet) of reserves.

Japan's football team was loudly jeered and booed by Chinese crowds as it won the Asian Cup this summer in China.

Chief Cabinet Secretary Hiroyuki Hosoda, the Japanese government spokesman, said Japan did not want to cause more confrontation with China.

"There is no change in our basic diplomatic policy that is based on peaceful diplomacy and friendship," Hosoda said.

A fact-finding mission from the Japanese parliament called Wednesday for a slash in development aid to China, which has so far totalled nearly 32 billion dollars, citing China's growing economy and hostility toward Japan.

Asked whether the submarine incident would lead Japan to pull the plug on aid, Hosoda said: "It's too early to judge that."

China feels deep resentment over Japan's brutal occupation of the country from 1931 to 1945. The feeling has been regularly reinforced by Koizumi's visits to a Tokyo shrine that honors Japanese war dead including convicted war criminals.

The visits to the Yasukuni shrine have made Koizumi persona non grata in Beijing, which has yet to confirm whether Chinese President Hu Jintao will meet him when they both attend the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation summit in Chile later this month.

If Hu and Koizumi do meet in Santiago, it would be "natural" that they discuss the submarine intrusion, Machimura said.

The submarine entered Japanese waters about 300 kilometers (180 miles) southwest of Okinawa, a southern island which hosts about 65 percent of the more than 40,000 US forces in Japan.

Japan sent two destroyers after the submarine along with a surveillance plane, which had been tracking the vessel by dropping wireless microphone buoys.

"As the submarine navigated north by northwest, we determined it belonged to China as the country possesses nuclear-powered submarines in the area and has thorough knowledge of geographical features of the ocean area," said Japan's military chief, Defense Agency Director-General Yoshinori Ono.

There was no immediate reaction out of Beijing.

Japan's former prime minister Ryutaro Hashimoto, who frequently visits China, met Thursday with senior Chinese officials and told them the submarine incident was "regrettable", without assigning blame.

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There are just alot of sayings...

Some say Taiwanese passed the info to Japs for early alert, and some say the unfortunate Sub was in Mech-trouble at the moment, and now even suggested that's actually some sort of " show off" by the Chinese.

So you judge yourself, Neverthless you zeal guys won't be disappointed in seeing such "affairs" occuring more n more often in the coming years. You know the further the Chinese navy can go into, the more "friction" will happen in touch with Japenses interests.

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So all those upgrades and refits to the 091 didn't make any difference. It seems that Japanese hunted it nicely. PLAN better come up with some really fancy quietening tech for the 093....or she maybe toast tooo :eek:

There was a post at CDF which stated it might have been 1st tracked by a SURTASS/SOSUS network thinggy.....maybe Jonesy could give some input here.

Refitted 091 pics:

Attachments

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There are certainly SOSUS arrays in the pacific but, ALL of their locations, are not in the public domain.

In this case the Chinese boat has been detected a long time prior to her interception in order to have 2 DDG's and an Orion on her for the two hours she was in Japanese waters!. The PLAN skipper probably thought he was quite safe to sneak in, get a couple of scope shots of 'disputed' gas production facilities, and get out before a prosecution could be mounted.

By the sound of it the Japanese knew where he was and had those destroyers waiting for him. To me that suggests the involvement of one of their SURTASS boats, but, that would be just speculation. It could be that a JMSDF SSK or a friendly SSN has been 'on' the Han for a while, but, usually in those cases no interventions are made so as not to tip off the opposition as to your capabilities.

On balance of probability I'd say SURTASS cueing got this guy, but, its only educated guesswork!.

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Yeah right... Note though. Japan is to the EAST of China. The pacific ocean is to the EAST of Japan. But the Chinese SSN entered from the Pacific and travelled towards the west... Interesting point isn't it?

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That pirate flag is sweet. Anywho, What kind of cannon is on that ship?