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By: - 20th October 2005 at 23:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Excellent image... as you say the island has gone from red primer to grey. She is still riding high in the water though, so they probably haven't installed any engines.You are most probably right, but it's still hard to say, and not out of the question. She also doesn't have any fuel, stores, or other heavy equipment. I have a feeling we'll know something more soon.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 02:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but could conceivably be a garbled report on what is now happening to Varyag.Well, as you say, no way could they build a 78,000 ton carrier from scratch in a year...and no way, after they have one, will they have a fully integrated and operational air wing in another year.
But...the Varyag could be ready for trials in another year to 18 months judging from the current looks of her if the PLAN went all out to make it so. The intergration of an air-wing though, that will be a many year project for the Chinese IMHO.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 03:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Getting a trained airwing together would be a multi-year task, but nowhere near as hard as people might think. The answer? Buy Su-27Ks and pay to have your guys trained with the Russian Navy pilots in the Crimean at Saki. You can pull the first trainees from the more experienced PLAAF Su-27SK ranks. Then you don't have to worry right away about developing and integrating a new carrier based aircraft.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 03:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The answer? Buy Su-27Ks and pay to have your guys trained with the Russian Navy pilots in the Crimean at Saki.I would not be surprised to find that the PLAN has already converted/rebuilt some of its own J11s or SU-27s into SU-33-like aircraft and has them training.
May not necessarily be so of course...but I would not be surprised to find out that is what they have done. A lot less fanfare with that than some large international purchase of SU-33s from the Russians.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 04:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The problem with doing it that way is that they are starting from ground zero with absolutely no experience or anything whatsoever. They have a decent relationship with Russia at the moment, so why not a collaborative effort? They could even go so far as to maybe collaborate on the new carrier Russia is considering for the future.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 08:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The problem with doing it that way is that they are starting from ground zero with absolutely no experience or anything whatsoever. They have a decent relationship with Russia at the moment, so why not a collaborative effort? They could even go so far as to maybe collaborate on the new carrier Russia is considering for the future.The Russians could, and would help. No doubt whatsoever. The Russians allowed them to license build the J11s (for a price), I imagine they would allow them to "license" build the upgrades from J11 to SU-33 too.
But now, instead of an "in the public" sale...that gets everyone's attention, Russian technicians and specialists would just be "consulting" for a fee.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 09:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
KUZNETSOV CLASS (TYPE 1143.5) HEAVY AIRCRAFT CARRYING CRUISER
standard displacement 43,000 tons
full load displacement 55,000 tons
maximum displacement 58,600 tons
source
Displacement: 67,500.0 (Tons) (Fully Loaded)
source
... I figure the report is not talking about Varyag therefor.
Soviet aircraft carrier Ulyanovsk (nuclear powered multirole aircraft carrier, based upon the 1975 Project OREL, cancelled when 40% complete)
Displacement:80000 tons max
source
Displacement: 85,000 tons full load
source
The Ul'yanovsk was the OREL design, revisited. She was to be a 75,000-ton follow-on to the Kuznetsov class, with steam catapults to launch her aircraft (eliminating the ski-jump bow). Ul'yanovsk would have been the first Russian nuclear-powered aircraft carrier. Her air wing would likely have been an expanded version of that found aboard Kuznetsov. The first unit of the class was laid down at Nikolayev South in late 1988. However, work stopped on the vessel after the August coup, in November 1991, and never resumed. In early February of the following year, she was scrapped.
source
How does co-development of a conventially powered version of Ulyanovsk by russia and china sound? It would help russia finance work on a Kuznetsov follow-on while not having to order one yet and would provide China with something more potent than the Kuz.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 12:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
She has a large trim, wich probably means she still doesn't have any steering gear as that is one of the most important parts of stability near the stern.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 14:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How does co-development of a conventially powered version of Ulyanovsk by russia and china sound?
Pretty bloody ambitiious for a nation that has never operated a naval vessel with more than two helos before to be quite honest :D Still since the evidence does seem to be stacking up against my intial thoughts on the whole 051C matter I guess I'll adopt the wait and see line on this one.
It would help russia finance work on a Kuznetsov follow-on while not having to order one yet and would provide China with something more potent than the Kuz.
If the Varyag really is being brought into service then why not just work with the Russian on that replacement vessel rather than build something entirely different and (given the age of the design and the fact it was formulated with the benefit of actually operating a Kuts vessel) probably flawed in some areas design.
Daniel
By: - 21st October 2005 at 17:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Do you really think Russia could afford that?
On her own, no. But that's where the Chinese could come in. Same thing with other weapons (e.g. Su30 mods, VL Shtil, mod-Moskit).
By: - 21st October 2005 at 17:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pretty bloody ambitiious for a nation that has never operated a naval vessel with more than two helos before to be quite honest :D Still since the evidence does seem to be stacking up against my intial thoughts on the whole 051C matter I guess I'll adopt the wait and see line on this one.If the Varyag really is being brought into service then why not just work with the Russian on that replacement vessel rather than build something entirely different and (given the age of the design and the fact it was formulated with the benefit of actually operating a Kuts vessel) probably flawed in some areas design.
Daniel
Agree afa China's know-how of naval aviation is concerned. But that's where the Russians could come in. As for a 'new' carrier design, I don't think the Varyag will ever be an operational carrier like the Kuz. And how far apart would a non-nuclear Ulyanovsk variant and an enlarged Kuznetsov variant really be? The latter has been in service for some time, enough to draw lessons. There is a complete design for Ulyanovsk available (they did start building it, remember). I don't see why they couldn't or wouldn't come up with an evolved design incorporating both Kuz's lessons and Ulya design aspects.
By: - 21st October 2005 at 20:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Excellent image... as you say the island has gone from red primer to grey. She is still riding high in the water though, so they probably haven't installed any engines.
Notice she trimming down over the bow.
By: - 22nd October 2005 at 10:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The engines don't have to do anything with that as engines are placed more amidships. It probably are the rudders/steering gear that is not installed, as that gives a much larger momentum from the point of floation.
By: - 22nd October 2005 at 18:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The engines don't have to do anything with that as engines are placed more amidships. It probably are the rudders/steering gear that is not installed, as that gives a much larger momentum from the point of floation.
screwS?
By: - 22nd October 2005 at 18:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the Varyag is brought into service, it will probably serve more like a training ship and an experience gatherer before the Chinese put their own carrier into service.
But sometimes you have to wonder why they just didn't do this with the Minsk and the Kiev earlier. What is it with the Varyag that makes it much more preferable? Size?
By: - 22nd October 2005 at 18:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Screws too, yes, all together they weigh at about 100-120ts. I'd say I'll calculate her center of floatation but for now that's a bit hard. I did find Kirov's, I'm still figuring out her trimming moments, a few days and I'll have that too.
By: - 22nd October 2005 at 18:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the Varyag is brought into service, it will probably serve more like a training ship and an experience gatherer before the Chinese put their own carrier into service.But sometimes you have to wonder why they just didn't do this with the Minsk and the Kiev earlier. What is it with the Varyag that makes it much more preferable? Size?
The Kiev and Minsk were not designed to operate CTOL aircraft. They were really heavliy armed helicopter carriers. The Yak-36/38 wasn't a completely successful VSTOL design. China apparently wants a CTOL carrier so Varyag is it.
Posts: 59
By: Jeff Head - 20th October 2005 at 22:43
She's certainly starting to look nice. Looks like the Island painting is nearing completion.
Now, there's an old saying in Texas (where I was raised)..."you can bring a girl to the party...but you can't make her dance."
Guess we'll find out soon enough.