By: black kettle
- 20th February 2011 at 21:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Deano
I half want to draw a line here mate,but feel compelled to say that,without EZY and FR at Bristol,I wouldn't have much choice,would I?
The airline for which you work has hardly helped to enhance the route network from here,has it?.....unless you include stepping into the Belfast City "gap"
I don't WANT to fly with Ryanair......if they collapsed tomorrow I've no personal connection to them,but I'd fly with any safe carrier.
By: Grey Area
- 20th February 2011 at 21:37Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Moderator Message
Speaking "officially" as a moderator, I see nothing wrong with any of the opinions expressed to date in this thread and certainly nothing that steps outside the normally-accepted boundaries of robust debate in here.
Can we drop this line of enquiry and return to the subject of the thread now, please?
By: Deano
- 20th February 2011 at 22:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Barry
You need to look a little closer to the airport as to why "my" airline does not offer many routes from Bristol. From what I gather the "rift" is slowly being healed and there could be expansion in the next few years from there. The worst thing we did was close it as a base as it was one of BA Connect's most profitable bases (and that's saying something for BACon). I heard a rumour of at least 6 new routes in the next 2 years.
By: MSR777
- 20th February 2011 at 22:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read an article today in the current issue of Airliner World, quoting the owner of the now defunct Palmair. In this article he states that a major factor in the demise of his airline, was the 'preferential treatment' given to a certain LoCo operator using Bournemouth airport. Interesting, and very relevant to this thread I think. I dare say that neither the owners of Bournemouth airport or the LoCo in question will be too forthcoming in the details of what the 'preferential treatment' consists of.
By: cloud_9
- 21st February 2011 at 00:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read the same article Interflug, and it has caused quite a bit of anger by local travel agents who used to book their passengers with Palmair.
Real question here though is how much and to what extent the pressure was applied by FR on BOH?
As I understand it, FR are due to operate 29 routes this summer from BOH, and seeing as they're a primary customer, I suspect that FR probably threatened BOH with the classic "withdrawal of all the routes", which in the eyes of BOH management could have spelt disaster for the airport as a whole, so the demise of Palmair was no doubt seen as "the lesser of two evils"...such a shame really.
By: black kettle
- 21st February 2011 at 08:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know it's not intentional by the last two contributors,but the facts are again being distorted,not least by the AW article omitting any mention of what the CEO of Palmair actually said after the aircraft had been repossessed by Astraeus and,I believe,before FR's announcement on routes.Ryanair wasn't mentioned,but airport "hassles" certainly were!
The article also makes no mention of the fact that local travel agents are almost certainly branches of Bath Travel,the retail travel agency that own (ed) Palmair.I'm not absolutely sure whether they were represented thro' other agencies,but Bath would have accounted for the majority of bookings,hence their staff are not exactly un-biased.
Here's what Mr Bath said :-
‘The public are fed up with more and more hassle, having their nail scissors taken away, their water bottles, more and more frisking and so-on. The ash cloud has also done more damage to aviation than any other occurrence in aviation in Britain.’
As I keep saying,there's plenty of evidence people are voting with their feet,not because of airline T & Cs but because of the purgatory they suffer at airports.
By: cloud_9
- 21st February 2011 at 10:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have you actually read the article black kettle?
I have it in front of me...
Palmair succumbs to Ryanair Effect - surely this headline is enough!?
...scrapping its tour operator Palmair this summer after being "swamped" by Ryanair...local agents criticise the airport authorities, saying it had been too ready to give favourable terms to Ryanair.
By: MSR777
- 21st February 2011 at 11:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would still like to know what these alleged preferential treatments are. The whole airline industry in this part of the globe, and thereby in other areas as well, was affected by the volcano scenario. The security issues at British airports are well documented and have affected all airlines for a long time , LoCos included. Its the type of scenario that I have seen and posted about many times. Palmair as I understand it, was a long term and well patronised airline with many top service awards under its belt. It was held in very high regard by the travel industry and by the people that used it, and supported the local airport for many years. Then along comes a well known LoCo to BOH, promising heaven and earth, going in with the usual regime of low, loss leader fares, and garnering those 'preferential treatments'. Everything in the garden is lovely! But be warned, picture this. The 'sun goes in' and those 'treatments' for whatever reason, become a little less 'preferential' and no longer to the LoCos liking. The grey clouds of 'toys in the corner' syndrome gather, the LoCo doesn't like what it sees, and with its usual aplomb, shall we politely say that it goes away. The loser as ever, the loyal, and in many cases, local customer. Now before certain members 'rear up', as is their right, and long may it be so, I fully accept that we are shackled by the free market system, and that LoCos are part of it. What I have illustrated here, IMO paints what I think is a possible future scenario for both BOH and the potential customers in the area. I sincerely hope that I'm proved wrong.
By: black kettle
- 21st February 2011 at 11:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cloud9
Of course I've read the article.....I have it in front of me!!!.The point I'm making is it quotes the views of what it describes as local travel agents.
I've never seen it suggested by either Palmair OR Astraeus that they feel FR were the main problem....indeed I'm questioning whether the airline hadn't ceased trading BEFORE FR said they were returning to BOH.Are you aware they'd also pulled the plug on BOH for Nov/Dec/Jan?
I've also sent you a verbatim quote of what the man who ran the b****y airline said were the reasons
Did YOU know about that post on UK Airports site dated 12/1/11,for that matter?
I'm sure many people see the public flocking to lo-cos,away from traditional "packages",as bad news....2 travel shops have closed in my own small town.
I also accept FR returning to BOH would have been a further nail in the coffin.
By: black kettle
- 21st February 2011 at 12:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IF62M
The loss of Palmair is I feel tragic for the historic reasons you say.However,with Flybe and Blue Islands having left BOH there were NO scheduled services and only a handful of holiday flights left.
What was the airport to do having just opened new terminal,car parks, etc?
By: MSR777
- 21st February 2011 at 15:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What indeed Barry. FR returning to BOH........What incentives were they offered? Are the same incentives being offered to the other operators? Who's paying for them? the tax payer? All questions that it would be very interesting to see the answers to. In particular, the one referring to wether other operators there are getting the same deals. Previous experience in other places with a certain carrier would suggest otherwise. If this is what BOH has to resort to, then so be it, thats 'business I suppose.
By: black kettle
- 21st February 2011 at 15:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's important to remember FR had operated there for about 10 years and pulled out over the winter,citing poor bookings.Indeed there was a fear they wouldn't return.The only other operator I know of is Thomson and I've no idea what the difference in deal is,if any.I imagine the airport was desperate....that's not the fault of any airline alone.
I think there's even now mis-information creeping in.I don't know where this figure of 29 routes came from.The only announcement I can find was on 20/12/10 FR confirmed they were returning to BOH "for the summer with 13 routes".Only 12 actually on their web site!.Few if any are daily,and it's no more than have been operated in the past.
They only do 29 from Bristol with 5 based a/c and some of those are seasonal and cease before others commence.
The MD of Palmair said in the autumn they'd voluntarily returned the a/c.That's NOT what Astraeus say.He also said they'd wind up in April 2011,using seats on Thomson in the interim,while others were still wondering whether FR were coming back.
Huge pinches of salt methinks and I believe AW may have been sold a fiction again
By: Sky High
- 21st February 2011 at 17:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think O'Leary knows exactly what he is doing and having had a look at his latest passenger numbers and the monthly bottom line he dismisses the on-line moaners and the nanny consumer programmes as irrelevant.
Posts: 203
By: black kettle - 20th February 2011 at 21:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Deano
I half want to draw a line here mate,but feel compelled to say that,without EZY and FR at Bristol,I wouldn't have much choice,would I?
The airline for which you work has hardly helped to enhance the route network from here,has it?.....unless you include stepping into the Belfast City "gap"
I don't WANT to fly with Ryanair......if they collapsed tomorrow I've no personal connection to them,but I'd fly with any safe carrier.
Barry
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 20th February 2011 at 21:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Moderator Message
Speaking "officially" as a moderator, I see nothing wrong with any of the opinions expressed to date in this thread and certainly nothing that steps outside the normally-accepted boundaries of robust debate in here.
Can we drop this line of enquiry and return to the subject of the thread now, please?
Thanks
GA
Posts: 2,623
By: Deano - 20th February 2011 at 22:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Barry
You need to look a little closer to the airport as to why "my" airline does not offer many routes from Bristol. From what I gather the "rift" is slowly being healed and there could be expansion in the next few years from there. The worst thing we did was close it as a base as it was one of BA Connect's most profitable bases (and that's saying something for BACon). I heard a rumour of at least 6 new routes in the next 2 years.
Posts: 2,886
By: MSR777 - 20th February 2011 at 22:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read an article today in the current issue of Airliner World, quoting the owner of the now defunct Palmair. In this article he states that a major factor in the demise of his airline, was the 'preferential treatment' given to a certain LoCo operator using Bournemouth airport. Interesting, and very relevant to this thread I think. I dare say that neither the owners of Bournemouth airport or the LoCo in question will be too forthcoming in the details of what the 'preferential treatment' consists of.
Posts: 2,343
By: cloud_9 - 21st February 2011 at 00:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I read the same article Interflug, and it has caused quite a bit of anger by local travel agents who used to book their passengers with Palmair.
Real question here though is how much and to what extent the pressure was applied by FR on BOH?
As I understand it, FR are due to operate 29 routes this summer from BOH, and seeing as they're a primary customer, I suspect that FR probably threatened BOH with the classic "withdrawal of all the routes", which in the eyes of BOH management could have spelt disaster for the airport as a whole, so the demise of Palmair was no doubt seen as "the lesser of two evils"...such a shame really.
Posts: 203
By: black kettle - 21st February 2011 at 08:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I know it's not intentional by the last two contributors,but the facts are again being distorted,not least by the AW article omitting any mention of what the CEO of Palmair actually said after the aircraft had been repossessed by Astraeus and,I believe,before FR's announcement on routes.Ryanair wasn't mentioned,but airport "hassles" certainly were!
The article also makes no mention of the fact that local travel agents are almost certainly branches of Bath Travel,the retail travel agency that own (ed) Palmair.I'm not absolutely sure whether they were represented thro' other agencies,but Bath would have accounted for the majority of bookings,hence their staff are not exactly un-biased.
Here's what Mr Bath said :-
‘The public are fed up with more and more hassle, having their nail scissors taken away, their water bottles, more and more frisking and so-on. The ash cloud has also done more damage to aviation than any other occurrence in aviation in Britain.’
As I keep saying,there's plenty of evidence people are voting with their feet,not because of airline T & Cs but because of the purgatory they suffer at airports.
Posts: 2,343
By: cloud_9 - 21st February 2011 at 10:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Have you actually read the article black kettle?
I have it in front of me...
Posts: 2,886
By: MSR777 - 21st February 2011 at 11:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would still like to know what these alleged preferential treatments are. The whole airline industry in this part of the globe, and thereby in other areas as well, was affected by the volcano scenario. The security issues at British airports are well documented and have affected all airlines for a long time , LoCos included. Its the type of scenario that I have seen and posted about many times. Palmair as I understand it, was a long term and well patronised airline with many top service awards under its belt. It was held in very high regard by the travel industry and by the people that used it, and supported the local airport for many years. Then along comes a well known LoCo to BOH, promising heaven and earth, going in with the usual regime of low, loss leader fares, and garnering those 'preferential treatments'. Everything in the garden is lovely! But be warned, picture this. The 'sun goes in' and those 'treatments' for whatever reason, become a little less 'preferential' and no longer to the LoCos liking. The grey clouds of 'toys in the corner' syndrome gather, the LoCo doesn't like what it sees, and with its usual aplomb, shall we politely say that it goes away. The loser as ever, the loyal, and in many cases, local customer. Now before certain members 'rear up', as is their right, and long may it be so, I fully accept that we are shackled by the free market system, and that LoCos are part of it. What I have illustrated here, IMO paints what I think is a possible future scenario for both BOH and the potential customers in the area. I sincerely hope that I'm proved wrong.
Posts: 203
By: black kettle - 21st February 2011 at 11:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Cloud9
Of course I've read the article.....I have it in front of me!!!.The point I'm making is it quotes the views of what it describes as local travel agents.
I've never seen it suggested by either Palmair OR Astraeus that they feel FR were the main problem....indeed I'm questioning whether the airline hadn't ceased trading BEFORE FR said they were returning to BOH.Are you aware they'd also pulled the plug on BOH for Nov/Dec/Jan?
I've also sent you a verbatim quote of what the man who ran the b****y airline said were the reasons
Did YOU know about that post on UK Airports site dated 12/1/11,for that matter?
I'm sure many people see the public flocking to lo-cos,away from traditional "packages",as bad news....2 travel shops have closed in my own small town.
I also accept FR returning to BOH would have been a further nail in the coffin.
Posts: 203
By: black kettle - 21st February 2011 at 12:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
IF62M
The loss of Palmair is I feel tragic for the historic reasons you say.However,with Flybe and Blue Islands having left BOH there were NO scheduled services and only a handful of holiday flights left.
What was the airport to do having just opened new terminal,car parks, etc?
B
Posts: 2,886
By: MSR777 - 21st February 2011 at 15:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What indeed Barry. FR returning to BOH........What incentives were they offered? Are the same incentives being offered to the other operators? Who's paying for them? the tax payer? All questions that it would be very interesting to see the answers to. In particular, the one referring to wether other operators there are getting the same deals. Previous experience in other places with a certain carrier would suggest otherwise. If this is what BOH has to resort to, then so be it, thats 'business I suppose.
Posts: 203
By: black kettle - 21st February 2011 at 15:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's important to remember FR had operated there for about 10 years and pulled out over the winter,citing poor bookings.Indeed there was a fear they wouldn't return.The only other operator I know of is Thomson and I've no idea what the difference in deal is,if any.I imagine the airport was desperate....that's not the fault of any airline alone.
I think there's even now mis-information creeping in.I don't know where this figure of 29 routes came from.The only announcement I can find was on 20/12/10 FR confirmed they were returning to BOH "for the summer with 13 routes".Only 12 actually on their web site!.Few if any are daily,and it's no more than have been operated in the past.
They only do 29 from Bristol with 5 based a/c and some of those are seasonal and cease before others commence.
The MD of Palmair said in the autumn they'd voluntarily returned the a/c.That's NOT what Astraeus say.He also said they'd wind up in April 2011,using seats on Thomson in the interim,while others were still wondering whether FR were coming back.
Huge pinches of salt methinks and I believe AW may have been sold a fiction again
B
Posts: 2,886
By: MSR777 - 21st February 2011 at 16:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I concur whole heartedly with your last line. I miss the 'insider info' it was usually possible to get when I was still employed;)
Posts: 4,956
By: Sky High - 21st February 2011 at 17:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think O'Leary knows exactly what he is doing and having had a look at his latest passenger numbers and the monthly bottom line he dismisses the on-line moaners and the nanny consumer programmes as irrelevant.