By: Pembo330
- 11th March 2005 at 12:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some interesting points here.
As an aviation freak, I'd be disappointed if I got changed onto a 757 trans-pond rather than an A330.
However, most passengers aren't aviation fans.
Those disappointed will likely be regular BMI long haul travellers who are used to the product. Your average ad-hoc business traveller and leisure traveller might not actually mind that much because they don't travel BMI long haul that often and don't have the comparison to make. The fact remains that BMI are the only airline offering direct services to Washington from Manchester and the North of England; a high proportion of people would still rather travel direct from Manchester on a 757, than go to London and have the hassle of transfers, Heathrow etc just to get a wider cabin and a PTV.
There will be disappointment, but, if that is kept to a few people, then there is no reason why a 757 on this route cannot be sucess.
And as Sandy says, you have to trust the management and hope that they know what they're doing. The proof isn't in what 'we' think, its what the general public think and a good proportion of them really won't mind that much that they'd book elsewhere.
By: Pembo330
- 11th March 2005 at 12:22Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but tbh i see this as the start of the end of bmi l/h @ MAN
Who knows what the future holds but I doubt this is the case. BMI have done more for long-haul at Manchester than anyone else in recent years, and what's more, they've done it successfully. I don't see any evidence that the sucess won't continue.
By: rdc1000
- 11th March 2005 at 12:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who knows what the future holds but I doubt this is the case. BMI have done more for long-haul at Manchester than anyone else in recent years, and what's more, they've done it successfully. I don't see any evidence that the sucess won't continue.
PIA have been a major force in long haul for MAN as well, and are considered a VERY important customer of the airport!
By: rdc1000
- 11th March 2005 at 13:35Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who knows what the future holds but I doubt this is the case. BMI have done more for long-haul at Manchester than anyone else in recent years, and what's more, they've done it successfully. I don't see any evidence that the sucess won't continue.
I think it is fairly safe to assume bmi will drop most (if not all) US routes from MAN should they receive rights to fly from LHR. The A330s were originally ordered in the hope that they may eventually be redeployed to LHR. I expect bmi will be as happy as BA to feed transatlantic traffic in from MAN rather than offer it direct!
By: David Kerr
- 11th March 2005 at 18:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The A330s were originally confirgured for LHR ops (more business class, less in economy) and was the reason why they had to postpone the MAN services as they were putting them into the current config.
MAN would have featured mid-to-long-term for long haul had they been open skies with the USA been brokered; it still didn't mean that they had to use the A330s to the US when they received them....they had applied for plenty of non-US destinations ex-LHR so it could only be the "prestige" of operating to the US that made them decide to launch long-haul ex-MAN first.
The next likely candidates for chopping at MAN are the Caribbean services; VS is to start a weekly BGI service from mid-November (it was in their timetable when I last looked a couple of days ago) and with a couple of 744s based, I can easily imagine them deciding to offer ANU, UVF and LAS ex-MAN through Virgin Holidays rather than use the BD services.
By: rdc1000
- 11th March 2005 at 21:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All of this is 100% true but so long as there is money to be earned on long-haul from MAN, someone will step in to fill the vacuum.
That's the way the market works.
That unfortunately is not the way the market works.....many routes which could sustain a good load factor, and reasonable profits are not served because of a number of reasons, such as the routes not fitting their business case, better use of aircraft resources elsewhere (ie where a more profitable route can be operated, normally where yields are generally higher).
I deal with route forecasting and unfortunately I know plenty or routes that an airline won't start.
By: rdc1000
- 11th March 2005 at 21:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the profit is there to be made, then someone will exploit it.
Basic Economics.
Yes, you're right...basic economics. My degree dissertation was an economics topic on contestable markets! BUT this isn't the case, airlines don't necessarily work in this way, I'm sorry Grey Area, but it is the real world of airlines we're talking about here, not textbook economics. As I have pointed out if an airline can use its resources to make more profit elsewhere then they will, they are numerous reasons why airlines don't take on routes.
By: rdc1000
- 11th March 2005 at 21:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't you dare patronise me!!! :mad:
I'm not quite sure what that means mate, I'm not trying to patronise you. I work in the industry, and deal with airports and airlines. It is simply the case that airlines don't always operate what are or have previously been profitable routes.
Posts: 920
By: Pembo330 - 11th March 2005 at 12:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Some interesting points here.
As an aviation freak, I'd be disappointed if I got changed onto a 757 trans-pond rather than an A330.
However, most passengers aren't aviation fans.
Those disappointed will likely be regular BMI long haul travellers who are used to the product. Your average ad-hoc business traveller and leisure traveller might not actually mind that much because they don't travel BMI long haul that often and don't have the comparison to make. The fact remains that BMI are the only airline offering direct services to Washington from Manchester and the North of England; a high proportion of people would still rather travel direct from Manchester on a 757, than go to London and have the hassle of transfers, Heathrow etc just to get a wider cabin and a PTV.
There will be disappointment, but, if that is kept to a few people, then there is no reason why a 757 on this route cannot be sucess.
And as Sandy says, you have to trust the management and hope that they know what they're doing. The proof isn't in what 'we' think, its what the general public think and a good proportion of them really won't mind that much that they'd book elsewhere.
Posts: 920
By: Pembo330 - 11th March 2005 at 12:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Who knows what the future holds but I doubt this is the case. BMI have done more for long-haul at Manchester than anyone else in recent years, and what's more, they've done it successfully. I don't see any evidence that the sucess won't continue.
Posts: 4,255
By: bmi-star - 11th March 2005 at 12:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Agree with you there Pembo, but its ovbious bmi's l/h future lies elsewhere i'm afraid
Posts: 1,342
By: rdc1000 - 11th March 2005 at 12:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PIA have been a major force in long haul for MAN as well, and are considered a VERY important customer of the airport!
Posts: 4,255
By: bmi-star - 11th March 2005 at 12:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Change that to "a VERY important customer for Shell!" :D
Posts: 1,342
By: rdc1000 - 11th March 2005 at 13:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think it is fairly safe to assume bmi will drop most (if not all) US routes from MAN should they receive rights to fly from LHR. The A330s were originally ordered in the hope that they may eventually be redeployed to LHR. I expect bmi will be as happy as BA to feed transatlantic traffic in from MAN rather than offer it direct!
Posts: 475
By: David Kerr - 11th March 2005 at 18:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The A330s were originally confirgured for LHR ops (more business class, less in economy) and was the reason why they had to postpone the MAN services as they were putting them into the current config.
MAN would have featured mid-to-long-term for long haul had they been open skies with the USA been brokered; it still didn't mean that they had to use the A330s to the US when they received them....they had applied for plenty of non-US destinations ex-LHR so it could only be the "prestige" of operating to the US that made them decide to launch long-haul ex-MAN first.
The next likely candidates for chopping at MAN are the Caribbean services; VS is to start a weekly BGI service from mid-November (it was in their timetable when I last looked a couple of days ago) and with a couple of 744s based, I can easily imagine them deciding to offer ANU, UVF and LAS ex-MAN through Virgin Holidays rather than use the BD services.
David
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 11th March 2005 at 20:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All of this is 100% true but so long as there is money to be earned on long-haul from MAN, someone will step in to fill the vacuum.
That's the way the market works.
Posts: 1,342
By: rdc1000 - 11th March 2005 at 21:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That unfortunately is not the way the market works.....many routes which could sustain a good load factor, and reasonable profits are not served because of a number of reasons, such as the routes not fitting their business case, better use of aircraft resources elsewhere (ie where a more profitable route can be operated, normally where yields are generally higher).
I deal with route forecasting and unfortunately I know plenty or routes that an airline won't start.
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 11th March 2005 at 21:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If the profit is there to be made, then someone will exploit it.
Basic Economics.
Posts: 1,342
By: rdc1000 - 11th March 2005 at 21:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, you're right...basic economics. My degree dissertation was an economics topic on contestable markets! BUT this isn't the case, airlines don't necessarily work in this way, I'm sorry Grey Area, but it is the real world of airlines we're talking about here, not textbook economics. As I have pointed out if an airline can use its resources to make more profit elsewhere then they will, they are numerous reasons why airlines don't take on routes.
Posts: 10,160
By: Grey Area - 11th March 2005 at 21:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't you dare patronise me or anyone else on this Forum!!! :mad:
Posts: 1,342
By: rdc1000 - 11th March 2005 at 21:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm not quite sure what that means mate, I'm not trying to patronise you. I work in the industry, and deal with airports and airlines. It is simply the case that airlines don't always operate what are or have previously been profitable routes.