By: merlin70
- 19th June 2004 at 20:19Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone know?
How close is PL965 to a PR XI from the second world war ,structure wise?(excluding the wind screen that is :-).
For example, would you be able to fit cameras to it ie the fuselage mounts still there.Or perhaps the PL965's fuel tanks .The XI had ,I think ,leading edge fuel tanks as well as a normal compliment of standard fuel tanks. Is this on the aircraft today or removed as a result of recent restoration or after RAF service?
Any other interesting views?
OFMC Fan
Here are some restoration photos. The news article is from the Medway Towns edition of Adscene 17 May 1991.
The other photos were taken in '93. She was restored by Medway Aircraft Preservation Society (MAPS) at Rochester airfield, Kent. Test flown by Mark Hanna during the Spring of '96. I have a video of the first post restoration take off, fly by and landing. It is not great quality but if anyone wishes to borrow it I can take it to Legends.
Although I visited the restoration many times and took lots of photos, I can only find a few at present. I was not really up on the Mk XI and didn't ask about fuel tanks and camera mounts. You could try contacting MAPS.
By: davski
- 19th June 2004 at 22:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone interested in the Spitfire should read Hugh Smallwood's excellent account of the aircraft's history - 'Spitfire in blue' (Osprey - isbn: 1 85532 615 9). The story of the restoration probably answers the vast majority or questions raised here, as far as I know the aircraft hasn't been altered in any way since it's days with Chris Horsley/OFMC. Of the restoration, apparently the CAA apparently were not enthusiastic about leading edge fuel tanks due to the types apparent tendency to ground-loop. As for the windscreen, Lewis Deal (MD MAPS) writes in the book: 'As far as possible we maintained external authenticity and original appearance for a Mk XI Spitfire but, after seeking advice and bearing in mind the possibility of bird-strike, we opted to fit a fighter-type armoured in place of the original Mk 1-type wrap-around screen. This may not have pleased the so-called purists, but we always took the view that safety, and not originality, was paramount'. It then goes out to mention some of the other concessions made, ie. the firewall was rebuilt using stainless steel and not the original aluminium/asbestos sandwich, the lower fire-wall skirt was also rebuilt using stainless steel, all forward hoses were manufactured using modern airliner techniques in relation to the use of flexible lines for fuel, hydraulics and pneumatics. I can confirm that PL965 does still have the characteristic deep cowling for the enlarged oil tank, and the camera ports, making it look reasonably externally authentic. The aircraft has a very well documented service history which is reproduced in Mr Smallwood's excellent book - it may well be out of print now, but if you can get hold of a copy it's a great read. If you can't, get yourselves over to Breighton - it's not that grim up north you know!
By: duxfordhawk
- 19th June 2004 at 23:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone remember seeing Ray Hanna fly PL965 in Americian markings at Biggin Hill in the 90s not sure what year maybe Battle of Britain show in 1997.
By: Black Knight
- 19th June 2004 at 23:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a video sold by Tiger Squadron of footage by one of the members of Mark doing all the ground runs and test flights amongst other footage. It also has the footage of Ray at Biggin. The commentator was John Blake and you here him say " There's nothing like watching Ray Hanna in a Spitfire".
By: JDK
- 20th June 2004 at 00:05Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Black Knight; that's how you can tell it's Blake. Highly amusing, annecdotal and often wrong. (Oooo get her!)
I posted a couple of pics a while back here, of the PR.XI in the US Scheme when it was at MH434's 50th, but my life it too short to try and dig 'em out of the forum search.
I'm not going to be dogmatic, but are we sure that it's got the deeper chin setup at the moment? Looking again, at the pics above I'm of too minds! Some views look less 'sleek' than the normal Spit chin, yet (to me) not deep enough to be the full PR chin. Anyoe able to post pics to compare? Was there more than one 'depth' of enlarged chin? Offers?
By: Mark12
- 20th June 2004 at 08:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"I think the answer lies in the soil"
It had occurred to me that, from photos of the 'belly in' at Woodchurch in August 1998, the lower engine cowling, completely shrouded in long grass, might have suffered and been re-profiled during the ensuing repair.
The attached 'Flypast' photo however, taken on 13 March 2000, shows the full depth PR cowling.
Like JDK, some of my subsequent photos suggest a less deep cowling. It must just be a trick of the viewing angle because full 'side on' profile shots at last years 'Sun & Fun' in Florida clearly show the deep cowling.
By: merlin70
- 20th June 2004 at 08:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PL965 in American markings as painted following restoration. Scanned in from Aeroplane Magazine, takn by Lewis Dealat Rochester in December 1992.
New colour scheme at North Weald in '94. Note the chin is still as per restoration.
The Merlin 66 installation in MT719. The oil cooler looks very similar to that of the Merlin 70 of PL965, although when 'dressed' has a sleeker appearance.
By: Bradburger
- 20th June 2004 at 15:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe that PL965 has always had the correct deeper lower cowling since her restoration and the photo's posted here seem to confirm that.
In fact, I've just had a look through the excellent book 'Spitfire - Flying Legend' by John Dibbs & Tony Holmes, and in all the photo's of PL965 she has the deeper lower cowl.
I did think that at one stage after restoration, PL983 had the deeper one too but all photo's and video footage I've seen show the standard one. Interestingly she did have the early style 'Flat' Top cowl mentioned in another thread while 965 has the 'bulged' one.
Anyway thanks to all for the info and great pics. :)
By: merlin70
- 20th June 2004 at 21:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=DazDaMan]What would look great on my wall would be a nice centrefold of PL965 - anyone know where I can get one?! :D
QUOTE]
Aeroplane Aug 2000 had this as a centrefold. You might be able to get a back issue off them. You never know they may have produced it poster size.
By: merlin70
- 20th June 2004 at 23:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Papa Lima
Thanks for doing the merge. I had only scanned the two pages and then posted them separately. My Photoshop moment was going to be the creation of a twin boom Spit. If I get the time, which is rare.
Posts: 1,587
By: merlin70 - 19th June 2004 at 20:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here are some restoration photos. The news article is from the Medway Towns edition of Adscene 17 May 1991.
The other photos were taken in '93. She was restored by Medway Aircraft Preservation Society (MAPS) at Rochester airfield, Kent. Test flown by Mark Hanna during the Spring of '96. I have a video of the first post restoration take off, fly by and landing. It is not great quality but if anyone wishes to borrow it I can take it to Legends.
Although I visited the restoration many times and took lots of photos, I can only find a few at present. I was not really up on the Mk XI and didn't ask about fuel tanks and camera mounts. You could try contacting MAPS.
The taxiing shot is at Cranfield July 1999.
Posts: 307
By: davski - 19th June 2004 at 22:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyone interested in the Spitfire should read Hugh Smallwood's excellent account of the aircraft's history - 'Spitfire in blue' (Osprey - isbn: 1 85532 615 9). The story of the restoration probably answers the vast majority or questions raised here, as far as I know the aircraft hasn't been altered in any way since it's days with Chris Horsley/OFMC. Of the restoration, apparently the CAA apparently were not enthusiastic about leading edge fuel tanks due to the types apparent tendency to ground-loop. As for the windscreen, Lewis Deal (MD MAPS) writes in the book: 'As far as possible we maintained external authenticity and original appearance for a Mk XI Spitfire but, after seeking advice and bearing in mind the possibility of bird-strike, we opted to fit a fighter-type armoured in place of the original Mk 1-type wrap-around screen. This may not have pleased the so-called purists, but we always took the view that safety, and not originality, was paramount'. It then goes out to mention some of the other concessions made, ie. the firewall was rebuilt using stainless steel and not the original aluminium/asbestos sandwich, the lower fire-wall skirt was also rebuilt using stainless steel, all forward hoses were manufactured using modern airliner techniques in relation to the use of flexible lines for fuel, hydraulics and pneumatics. I can confirm that PL965 does still have the characteristic deep cowling for the enlarged oil tank, and the camera ports, making it look reasonably externally authentic. The aircraft has a very well documented service history which is reproduced in Mr Smallwood's excellent book - it may well be out of print now, but if you can get hold of a copy it's a great read. If you can't, get yourselves over to Breighton - it's not that grim up north you know!
Posts: 4,169
By: Yak 11 Fan - 19th June 2004 at 23:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not grim at all, its a superb place, I'll be back next month
Posts: 2,230
By: duxfordhawk - 19th June 2004 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Does anyone remember seeing Ray Hanna fly PL965 in Americian markings at Biggin Hill in the 90s not sure what year maybe Battle of Britain show in 1997.
Posts: 1,891
By: Black Knight - 19th June 2004 at 23:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a video sold by Tiger Squadron of footage by one of the members of Mark doing all the ground runs and test flights amongst other footage. It also has the footage of Ray at Biggin. The commentator was John Blake and you here him say " There's nothing like watching Ray Hanna in a Spitfire".
Posts: 8,195
By: JDK - 20th June 2004 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Black Knight; that's how you can tell it's Blake. Highly amusing, annecdotal and often wrong. (Oooo get her!)
I posted a couple of pics a while back here, of the PR.XI in the US Scheme when it was at MH434's 50th, but my life it too short to try and dig 'em out of the forum search.
I'm not going to be dogmatic, but are we sure that it's got the deeper chin setup at the moment? Looking again, at the pics above I'm of too minds! Some views look less 'sleek' than the normal Spit chin, yet (to me) not deep enough to be the full PR chin. Anyoe able to post pics to compare? Was there more than one 'depth' of enlarged chin? Offers?
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 20th June 2004 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"I think the answer lies in the soil"
It had occurred to me that, from photos of the 'belly in' at Woodchurch in August 1998, the lower engine cowling, completely shrouded in long grass, might have suffered and been re-profiled during the ensuing repair.
The attached 'Flypast' photo however, taken on 13 March 2000, shows the full depth PR cowling.
Like JDK, some of my subsequent photos suggest a less deep cowling. It must just be a trick of the viewing angle because full 'side on' profile shots at last years 'Sun & Fun' in Florida clearly show the deep cowling.
Mark
Posts: 1,587
By: merlin70 - 20th June 2004 at 08:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PL965 in American markings as painted following restoration. Scanned in from Aeroplane Magazine, takn by Lewis Dealat Rochester in December 1992.
New colour scheme at North Weald in '94. Note the chin is still as per restoration.
The Merlin 66 installation in MT719. The oil cooler looks very similar to that of the Merlin 70 of PL965, although when 'dressed' has a sleeker appearance.
Still looking for more conclusive info.
Posts: 151
By: OFMC Fan - 20th June 2004 at 09:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks fro the informative replies!!
I'll have to check out about getting a copy of that video that Black Knight mentioned .Fingers crossed.
Always liked Spitfire XI 's. Look great in overall blue.Something different when it was painted up in US recon scheme.
Thanks too for the pictures.Nice one.
OFMC Fan
Posts: 307
By: davski - 20th June 2004 at 10:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You coming over to the hoedown then?!
Posts: 18,353
By: DazDaMan - 20th June 2004 at 15:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What would look great on my wall would be a nice centrefold of PL965 - anyone know where I can get one?! :D
(Already have the beautiful study of the late Martin Sargent(sp?) flying PL983 over the BofB Memorial - looking for something similar)
Posts: 1,538
By: Bradburger - 20th June 2004 at 15:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe that PL965 has always had the correct deeper lower cowling since her restoration and the photo's posted here seem to confirm that.
In fact, I've just had a look through the excellent book 'Spitfire - Flying Legend' by John Dibbs & Tony Holmes, and in all the photo's of PL965 she has the deeper lower cowl.
I did think that at one stage after restoration, PL983 had the deeper one too but all photo's and video footage I've seen show the standard one. Interestingly she did have the early style 'Flat' Top cowl mentioned in another thread while 965 has the 'bulged' one.
Anyway thanks to all for the info and great pics. :)
Cheers
Paul
Posts: 8,195
By: JDK - 20th June 2004 at 16:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hi Paul,
Thanks for that. Must have my PRs mixed...
Cheers
Posts: 4,169
By: Yak 11 Fan - 20th June 2004 at 21:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Certainly will, hotel room now booked, you may need to go easy on this old southerner though :rolleyes:
Posts: 1,587
By: merlin70 - 20th June 2004 at 21:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE=DazDaMan]What would look great on my wall would be a nice centrefold of PL965 - anyone know where I can get one?! :D
QUOTE]
Aeroplane Aug 2000 had this as a centrefold. You might be able to get a back issue off them. You never know they may have produced it poster size.
Posts: 1,587
By: merlin70 - 20th June 2004 at 21:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Before any wise cracks are made. No it is not a twin Spit but I think I'm having a Photoshop moment. :)
Posts: 2,929
By: Papa Lima - 20th June 2004 at 22:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Reassembled Spitfire
Is this what you were trying to do?
Posts: 1,587
By: merlin70 - 20th June 2004 at 23:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Papa Lima
Thanks for doing the merge. I had only scanned the two pages and then posted them separately. My Photoshop moment was going to be the creation of a twin boom Spit. If I get the time, which is rare.
Posts: 10,029
By: Mark12 - 21st June 2004 at 07:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Credit where it is due.
I am sure the photographer, who is a regular forum contributor, would appreciate a credit for this most splendid shot.
Mark
Posts: 307
By: davski - 21st June 2004 at 10:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Mr Paver I believe - and a cracking picture it is too!