By: lordofjedi
- 26th February 2010 at 03:04Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fantastic rendering, it looks very menacing and beautiful at the same time.
I am not sure if it is proportioned correctly however: the main/center fuselage seems set lower to the intakes in this view compared to what it really is. Yes, the front landing gear is shorter than the rear, making it bow forward, but not sure if it would be this much.
Russia's Sukhoi stealth fighter tested
This online supplement is produced and published by Rossiyskaya Gazeta (Russia), which takes sole responsibility for the content.
Heiner Klemm, Russia Now
Published: 6:27PM GMT 25 Feb 2010
PAK FA: Sukhoi's latest fighter could be in service by 2015 Photo: www.sukhoi.org
Russia's state-owned Sukhoi aviation company has flight tested a fifth-generation fighter jet, the PAK FA. The plane is thought to incorporate stealth technology and comes with air-to-air, air-to-surface, and air-to-ship missiles, as well as twin 30mm cannon.
Set to enter service in 2015, Sukhoi's PAK FA is designed to compete with America's F-22 Raptor, the only other fifth-generation fighter plane in production. The Raptor's $146m (£94m) price tag meant that President Barak Obama cancelled orders for more Raptors in October last year.
Sukhoi won a tender to build the PAK FA in 2002, replacing similar projects to build a fifth-generation jet fighter that had been discussed since the late Eighties.
The jet will have a speed of 1,250mph and a range of up to 3,500 miles, according to information released by Sukhoi.
"This is a great success of both Russian science and Russian design. This achievement rests upon a co-operation team comprising more than 100 of our suppliers and strategic partners," Sukhoi chief Mikhail Pogosyan said.
He added that the plane – along with its fourth-generation fighters – would "define Russian Air Force potential" for decades to come.
"Sukhoi plans to further elaborate on the PAK FA programme, which will involve our Indian partners.
"I am strongly convinced that our joint project will excel against its Western rivals in cost-effectiveness and will… gain a significant share of the world market," Pogosyan said.
Even after the Cold War, Russia continues to produce state-of-the-art arms and has seen exports of military equipment soar in recent years. While still far from challenging America's lead, Anatoly Isaikin, director general of Russian arms exporter Rosoboronexport, says that Russia's contract portfolio rose to £20.5bn from £14bn over the year in 2009.
Interesting, they are quite bold with the 2015 date... But then again this is marketing...
By: Rodolfo
- 26th February 2010 at 13:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
a decade ago they were quite bold with 2007 first flight date
A decade ago some westerners big talkers told us that Russian 5th generations fighters are just “paper planes” and that Russia is unable to build 5th generation fighters and AESA.:diablo:
By: Levsha
- 26th February 2010 at 17:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A decade ago some westerners big talkers told us that Russian 5th generations fighters are just “paper planes” and that Russia is unable to build 5th generation fighters and AESA.:diablo:
Check the reality.
They aren't all so called 'Westerners'. I've met a few Russians who are/were sceptical of the PAK FA project:
Strictly speaking, Russia has still to fully develop either a 5th generation fighter or a AESA radar, still early days yet.
By: Rodolfo
- 26th February 2010 at 18:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They aren't all so called 'Westerners'. I've met a few Russians who are/were sceptical of the PAK FA project:
Strictly speaking, Russia has still to fully develop either a 5th generation fighter or a AESA radar, still early days yet.
I agree here with your more accurate description of the reality. Russia has still to fully develop either a 5th generation fighter or AESA radar, still early days yet. They are certainly doing it. Contrast this with bizarre assertions of Ariel Cohen, Pavel Felgenhauer and some other neoconservative folks. Check i.e. this Mr Pavel assertion
Felgenhauer initially described the 2008 South Ossetia War as a Russian logistical nightmare, and claimed that Russia would face a prolonged war against a highly capable Georgian army, stalling it at the border in a position that would become untenable in winter. [4] After the Russian Army routed the Georgian Army in 9 days, Felgenhauer claimed that Russia's invasion was pre-planned. [5] According to Felgenhauer, "Moscow prepared a full-scale military invasion to oust Saakashvili".[6] However, Moscow did not launch an infantry assault of Tbilisi, which was the only way to oust Saakashvili, despite having the capability to do so due to the Georgian Army being demoralized. [7]
:D:diablo::o
Certainly Jamestown Foundation and similars have been consistent on always being wrong with predictions about Russia. They are getting more rabid day by day. This imply that, in spite of its prediction=whishes, Russia is progressing.
By: sferrin
- 26th February 2010 at 18:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A decade ago some westerners big talkers told us that Russian 5th generations fighters are just “paper planes” and that Russia is unable to build 5th generation fighters and AESA.:diablo:
Check the reality.
And a decade ago that was true. And even still much remains to be seen. At the moment "PAK-FA" is no more a production aircraft than were the Mig 1.44 or Berkut. Remember, the YF-23 and YF-22 made their first flights 20 years ago. "PAK-FA" has a ways to go before we see them flying for the Russian airforce. ;)
By: Rodolfo
- 26th February 2010 at 19:48Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And a decade ago that was true. And even still much remains to be seen. At the moment "PAK-FA" is no more a production aircraft than were the Mig 1.44 or Berkut. Remember, the YF-23 and YF-22 made their first flights 20 years ago.
Was true? Relatively.
The above cited folk talked about the irreversible inability of the Russian aeronautic industry to build AESA and 5th generation fighters. This seems to me a loss of ability for a long, long time. No just 10 years. Anyway the same big talkers are claiming now “Well is just a prototype, errhhh, it have no radar!” and words like this. PAK-FA got them rabid.
"PAK-FA" has a ways to go before we see them flying for the Russian airforce.
By: medal64
- 26th February 2010 at 21:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creation of Fifth Generation Fighter by Russia and India to Take 6 - 10 Years
According to Aleksandr Fomin, deputy chief of the federal service for military and technical cooperation. In addition, Russian and India intend to sell the airplane to other countries.
Source: 24.02.10, Avia.RU
Seems like the export version will be the double seat version!
New
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku
- 27th February 2010 at 14:10Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was true? Relatively.
The above cited folk talked about the irreversible inability of the Russian aeronautic industry to build AESA and 5th generation fighters. This seems to me a loss of ability for a long, long time. No just 10 years. Anyway the same big talkers are claiming now “Well is just a prototype, errhhh, it have no radar!” and words like this. PAK-FA got them rabid.
Isn't the PAK-FA development programme Govt. funded 'till 2015? I don't recall the MiG 1.44 or S-37 'winning' any RuAF/MoD competitive tender or receiving any state funding- didn't the 1.44 nearly bankrupt MiG?
Reading those Official Russian Govt. documents last year highlights how (politically & militarily) fundamental this project is. Once the Indian Govt. sign s the contracts during Putin's visit to New Delhi next week- all this dribble of 'vapourware' can be laid to rest.
We might also get an indication of how much has already been spent, what is roughly the "substantial" financial Indian contribution, and where is it directed- it won't just be for the FGFA.
The T-50 is a prototype, statement of intent- moreso.
By: haavarla
- 27th February 2010 at 14:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If Sukhoi so far has paid up for the R&D on the Pak-Fa, so what?
It doesn't really matter, the Russian DoD official stated that they will support this program, end of story.
KNAAPO are gearing up with the Su-35S this year, needles to say they are undertaking some upgrades on their production facilities.
The future for the Pak-Fa are bright and shiny indeed, and yes it will be interesting to learn what the Indian deal in the FGFA will contain.
Statment as they only built/flew 1-3 prototype so far and could end up as the SU-47/ Mig-1.44 are hopless by any standard.
But if people here are finding comfort in these statement, by all means endulge yourself.:cool:
Russia flew a prototype of its fifth-generation fighter on January 29, 2010, in what analysts agree was a major milestone for the national aerospace industry. The Sukhoi corporation’s T-50 jet, developed under the PAK FA (Future Front Line Aircraft System) program, took off from a Komsomolsk-upon-Amur airfield for a 47-minute maiden flight. The aircraft is the first radically new Russian design that looks likely to enter commercial production since the first MiG-29 and Su-27 prototypes of the previous fourth generation took to the air back in 1977.
The maiden flight of the PAK FA has broken America’s complete monopoly on the development and production of fifth-generation fighter jets. It has also demonstrated that while not America’s equal militarily, Russia is still a solid second in terms of defense technology, outranking both Western Europe and China and punching well above its economic weight.
But while the maiden flight itself was a major coup for Russia, the success of the PAK FA program is not a foregone conclusion. Serious financial, technical and even political hurdles still remain. They have the potential to cause major delays or even stall the program completely.
- In terms of technology, the biggest worry is the remaining uncertainty over the so-called “next engine”. The existing T-50-01 prototype is equipped with deeply upgraded fourth-generation engines. And while they provide the necessary amount of thrust (even for supersonic cruising), they are not up to the fifth-generation spec in terms of the thrust-to-weight ratio and fuel economy. Many observers are skeptical about Russia’s chances of creating a proper fifth-generation engine that could compete with America’s Pratt & Whitney F119. Problems also remain with the new radar and other onboard equipment, but recent progress suggests that the risks here are moderate.
- The financial risks stem from uncertainty over Russia’s economic prospects, which are too dependent on exports of oil, gas and other natural resources. The PAK FA project could well grind to a halt if the country suffers another economic shock like the one it went through in 2009, when the economy shrank by 8 per cent and the budget deficit spiraled to 5.9 per cent.
- The political risk is that cumbersome Russian bureaucracy could well stymie Indian participation in the program. And without the Indians, mass production becomes commercially unviable because the Russian Defense Ministry’s order for the new jets will be very modest.
But although it would take at least another decade to turn PAK FA into a proper combat system, the maiden flight of the T-50 has been a major boost for the Russian aerospace industry. Its existing customers can now see a clear way forward for their national air forces, and their choice of Russia as a supplier has been vindicated. Russia can now negotiate with potential foreign customers from a much stronger position, and that includes civilian contracts as well as military. Several countries, including Libya and Vietnam, have already expressed their interest in the future Russian fifth-generation fighter.
Of course, any serious military, political or commercial dividends of the PAK FA program hinge on Russia’s ability to take it from the prototype stage to mass production. If that happens, America’s F-35 and the Russian T-50 will be the only two players on the world market for combat aircraft after 2020. The European offerings, which are all based on essentially fourth-generation technology, will be marginalized, and Europe itself will most likely be eliminated as a serious competitor. That opens up very alluring and hitherto inconceivable prospects of cooperation between the Russian aerospace industry and some European aerospace powers which still retain a large degree of sovereignty and independence from the United States.
At present, very little is known about the T-50’s onboard equipment, and even less about its future missile systems, so there is no point trying to compare the Russian and American fifth-generation fighters in terms of their combat capability. But it would not be much of a stretch to say that regardless of the T-50’s actual strengths and weaknesses, it is guaranteed to seize up to 30 per cent of the market simply by virtue of not being American. The new Russian-Indian fighter clearly has excellent prospects on the Asia-Pacific markets, especially those which Russia has already staked. What is more, when paired with the Su-35, the T-50 could be an even more enticing offering that America’s much-vaunted bestseller of the future, the F-35.
By: haavarla
- 27th February 2010 at 16:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A pretty good and ballanced article by Konstantin Makienko.
The chances of some kind of delays on the Pak-Fa are very much present.
By looking back a bit, and to the future challanges ahead i think this is a given.
But in the long term development i think i doesn't change the fact that the Pak-Fa program is the future of Russian Aviation.
On a realistic scale i don't think the Pratt & Whitney F119 is a fair comparison to the required engine on the Pak-Fa.
Why?
Cause the F119 is way too heavy and the fuel consumption are pretty high too.
The the final AL-41F will have to make due with a somewhat less thrust ratio.
This isn't all that bad as the Aircraft it self will be lighter and with the high lift and little drag, the fuel consumtion will be better vs the F-22A.
The big question here is how good the Pak-Fa internal fuel fraction will be..
Its fair to say it will be somewhat better vs the F-22A.
Why?
If RuAF continue with its Flanker filosofi on the heavy interceptor role/requirements.
And if this reflects the recent Su-35S 11.5 tons internal fuel fraction, the final Pak-Fa will have a very good mission range indeed.
By: sferrin
- 27th February 2010 at 16:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was true? Relatively.
The above cited folk talked about the irreversible inability of the Russian aeronautic industry to build AESA and 5th generation fighters. This seems to me a loss of ability for a long, long time. No just 10 years. Anyway the same big talkers are claiming now “Well is just a prototype, errhhh, it have no radar!” and words like this. PAK-FA got them rabid.
Never say "never". But, like I said, they've yet to be proven wrong. If PAK-FA enters service then they'll have been proven wrong.
By: sferrin
- 27th February 2010 at 16:43Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A pretty good and ballanced article by Konstantin Makienko.
I don't know about that part. Seems like he's jumping the gun quite a bit. Here for example,
"The maiden flight of the PAK FA has broken America’s complete monopoly on the development and production of fifth-generation fighter jets. "
It's done nothing of the sort -yet. At this stage it's nothing more than another Mig-1.42 or Berkut. As I recall they were both hailed as being the Russian "F-22 killer" as well. They even claimed (at the time) to have superior stealth characteristics to the F-22. We saw how that worked out. Now don't twist this into me saying something I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that the PAK-FA has to get into service before they can start making that claim.
On a realistic scale i don't think the Pratt & Whitney F119 is not a fair comparison to the required engine on the Pak-Fa.
Why?
Cause the F119 is way too heavy and the fuel consumption are pretty high too.
The the final AL-41F will have to make due with a somewhat less thrust ratio.
How can the F119 be both too heavy AND have a superior T:W ratio in a plane that is smaller and lighter than the Russian one? :confused:
This isn't all that bad as the Aircraft it self will be lighter and with the high lift and little drag, the fuel consumtion will be better vs the F-22A.
If the aircraft is much larger and it has a greater fuel load odds are it will be heavier. Hard to see how it won't be.
By: HAWX ace
- 27th February 2010 at 17:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A pretty good and ballanced article by Konstantin Makienko.
It's the same guy who gave that really insightfull interview to mk.ru a few days before the first flight, so it isn't too surprising, he seems a well respected chap.
Posts: 372
By: coolieno99 - 25th February 2010 at 23:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 26th February 2010 at 00:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The latest article about the Russian AFAR.
http://www.aex.ru/fdocs/2/2010/2/26/16982/
Posts: 277
By: lordofjedi - 26th February 2010 at 03:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Fantastic rendering, it looks very menacing and beautiful at the same time.
I am not sure if it is proportioned correctly however: the main/center fuselage seems set lower to the intakes in this view compared to what it really is. Yes, the front landing gear is shorter than the rear, making it bow forward, but not sure if it would be this much.
Posts: 210
By: foxmulder - 26th February 2010 at 03:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
kick-ass drawing...
Posts: 3,280
By: Loke - 26th February 2010 at 09:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Commercial supplement
Commercial supplement:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/russianow/business/7318353/Russias-Sukhoi-stealth-fighter-tested.html
Interesting, they are quite bold with the 2015 date... But then again this is marketing...
Posts: 271
By: rsetiawan - 26th February 2010 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
a decade ago they were quite bold with 2007 first flight date....;)
Posts: 1,245
By: Rodolfo - 26th February 2010 at 13:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A decade ago some westerners big talkers told us that Russian 5th generations fighters are just “paper planes” and that Russia is unable to build 5th generation fighters and AESA.:diablo:
Check the reality.
Posts: 2,814
By: Levsha - 26th February 2010 at 17:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
They aren't all so called 'Westerners'. I've met a few Russians who are/were sceptical of the PAK FA project:
Strictly speaking, Russia has still to fully develop either a 5th generation fighter or a AESA radar, still early days yet.
Posts: 2,163
By: Amiga500 - 26th February 2010 at 17:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Already R&D'd.... back in 1993!
I think it would be quite straightforward to spring load the lattice fins and trigger them after release.
http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1993/1993%20-%202260.html
Half way down leftmost column.
Posts: 1,245
By: Rodolfo - 26th February 2010 at 18:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I agree here with your more accurate description of the reality. Russia has still to fully develop either a 5th generation fighter or AESA radar, still early days yet. They are certainly doing it. Contrast this with bizarre assertions of Ariel Cohen, Pavel Felgenhauer and some other neoconservative folks. Check i.e. this Mr Pavel assertion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavel_Felgenhauer
:D:diablo::o
Certainly Jamestown Foundation and similars have been consistent on always being wrong with predictions about Russia. They are getting more rabid day by day. This imply that, in spite of its prediction=whishes, Russia is progressing.
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 26th February 2010 at 18:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And a decade ago that was true. And even still much remains to be seen. At the moment "PAK-FA" is no more a production aircraft than were the Mig 1.44 or Berkut. Remember, the YF-23 and YF-22 made their first flights 20 years ago. "PAK-FA" has a ways to go before we see them flying for the Russian airforce. ;)
Posts: 1,245
By: Rodolfo - 26th February 2010 at 19:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Was true? Relatively.
The above cited folk talked about the irreversible inability of the Russian aeronautic industry to build AESA and 5th generation fighters. This seems to me a loss of ability for a long, long time. No just 10 years. Anyway the same big talkers are claiming now “Well is just a prototype, errhhh, it have no radar!” and words like this. PAK-FA got them rabid.
So do the F-35. And so?
Posts: 1,114
By: medal64 - 26th February 2010 at 21:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Creation of Fifth Generation Fighter by Russia and India to Take 6 - 10 Years
According to Aleksandr Fomin, deputy chief of the federal service for military and technical cooperation. In addition, Russian and India intend to sell the airplane to other countries.
Source: 24.02.10, Avia.RU
Seems like the export version will be the double seat version!
Posts: 1,403
By: Otaku - 27th February 2010 at 14:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Isn't the PAK-FA development programme Govt. funded 'till 2015? I don't recall the MiG 1.44 or S-37 'winning' any RuAF/MoD competitive tender or receiving any state funding- didn't the 1.44 nearly bankrupt MiG?
Reading those Official Russian Govt. documents last year highlights how (politically & militarily) fundamental this project is. Once the Indian Govt. sign s the contracts during Putin's visit to New Delhi next week- all this dribble of 'vapourware' can be laid to rest.
We might also get an indication of how much has already been spent, what is roughly the "substantial" financial Indian contribution, and where is it directed- it won't just be for the FGFA.
The T-50 is a prototype, statement of intent- moreso.
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 27th February 2010 at 14:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If Sukhoi so far has paid up for the R&D on the Pak-Fa, so what?
It doesn't really matter, the Russian DoD official stated that they will support this program, end of story.
KNAAPO are gearing up with the Su-35S this year, needles to say they are undertaking some upgrades on their production facilities.
The future for the Pak-Fa are bright and shiny indeed, and yes it will be interesting to learn what the Indian deal in the FGFA will contain.
Statment as they only built/flew 1-3 prototype so far and could end up as the SU-47/ Mig-1.44 are hopless by any standard.
But if people here are finding comfort in these statement, by all means endulge yourself.:cool:
Thanks
Posts: 573
By: UAZ - 27th February 2010 at 15:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
From Moscow Defense Brief
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/1-2010/item1/article1/
Posts: 6,441
By: haavarla - 27th February 2010 at 16:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A pretty good and ballanced article by Konstantin Makienko.
The chances of some kind of delays on the Pak-Fa are very much present.
By looking back a bit, and to the future challanges ahead i think this is a given.
But in the long term development i think i doesn't change the fact that the Pak-Fa program is the future of Russian Aviation.
On a realistic scale i don't think the Pratt & Whitney F119 is a fair comparison to the required engine on the Pak-Fa.
Why?
Cause the F119 is way too heavy and the fuel consumption are pretty high too.
The the final AL-41F will have to make due with a somewhat less thrust ratio.
This isn't all that bad as the Aircraft it self will be lighter and with the high lift and little drag, the fuel consumtion will be better vs the F-22A.
The big question here is how good the Pak-Fa internal fuel fraction will be..
Its fair to say it will be somewhat better vs the F-22A.
Why?
If RuAF continue with its Flanker filosofi on the heavy interceptor role/requirements.
And if this reflects the recent Su-35S 11.5 tons internal fuel fraction, the final Pak-Fa will have a very good mission range indeed.
Thanks
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 27th February 2010 at 16:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Never say "never". But, like I said, they've yet to be proven wrong. If PAK-FA enters service then they'll have been proven wrong.
True, it can always get cancelled.Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 27th February 2010 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't know about that part. Seems like he's jumping the gun quite a bit. Here for example,
"The maiden flight of the PAK FA has broken America’s complete monopoly on the development and production of fifth-generation fighter jets. "
It's done nothing of the sort -yet. At this stage it's nothing more than another Mig-1.42 or Berkut. As I recall they were both hailed as being the Russian "F-22 killer" as well. They even claimed (at the time) to have superior stealth characteristics to the F-22. We saw how that worked out. Now don't twist this into me saying something I'm not. I'm simply pointing out that the PAK-FA has to get into service before they can start making that claim.
How can the F119 be both too heavy AND have a superior T:W ratio in a plane that is smaller and lighter than the Russian one? :confused:
If the aircraft is much larger and it has a greater fuel load odds are it will be heavier. Hard to see how it won't be.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 27th February 2010 at 17:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's the same guy who gave that really insightfull interview to mk.ru a few days before the first flight, so it isn't too surprising, he seems a well respected chap.