its full scale, something more or less the size of a mirage 4000 (i will check if you wish). And i'd say it looks like YF23
Physics are the same everywhere...
By: eagle1
- 17th June 2019 at 12:33Permalink- Edited 17th June 2019 at 12:35
Nice ! Ambitious design.
I am surprised by the size which seems big to me if in the mirage 4000 category. I thought it had to fit the CdG aircraft carrier which shoul have limites the mass.
Nous nous sommes un peu décus par la présence de dérives Deino.
PS as fa as your opinion is argumented and polite, why should we dislike
PS2there is an english speaking friends topic ;). Will love to see you argue with HK on it!
Nous nous sommes un peu décus par la présence de dérives Deino.
PS as fa as your opinion is argumented and polite, why should we dislike
PS2there is an english speaking friends topic ;). Will love to see you argue with HK on it!
To admit I wanted to be as careful as possible since some here and in other forums seem to rate the Tepest as THE ONE and ONLY and so have nothing good to mention in regard to the new French/German-design! ... and I'm sure it will continue that way.
But since this is a French design for sure and we all know what handsome designs they make, why should it be different this time? ;)
By: FBW
- 17th June 2019 at 15:52Permalink- Edited 17th June 2019 at 16:03
PAS19 sees two next gen fighter mockups revealed, can't be anything but a win for defense aviation fans and interest will be high. SCAF, Tempest & TF-X mockups are all "lookers". Don't know if I'm getting old or simply practical, but cynical on the odds of two concurrent European projects coming to fruition. Yes, past experience suggests that it could happen, but both the Rafale and Eurofighter began in the era of large defense budgets.
The timeline is much tighter on FCAS (demonstrator by 2025? airframe possible, doubt engine will be ready, systems?). Meanwhile, the Tempest program needs to solidify partnerships. While I don't see the two programs merging (Dassault will see to that), collaboration on propulsion would increase the odds both programs survive.
Rolls-Royce has already competed in projects for and developed adaptive fan tech. I would like to see a path forward for collaboration on propulsion, software development, and certain systems like: life support, comms, thermal regulation (a BIG concern moving forward). It just makes sense, and would allow more European defense companies to survive into the 2030's. The projects could still have different platforms (H@ll, that's not even the most expensive nor riskiest part of an aircraft program anymore), platform specific sensors.
SCAF/FCAS engine partnership Safran/MTU was announced in Feb, Safran contract for the combustor & HPC designs run until 2024. Engine dev could delay the project considerably considering the timeline. A collaboration with RR could develop a family of adaptive cycle engines around a common core. The US started the ADVENT/AETP programs well over a decade ago for propulsion systems due in 2025 (phase I) and 2030 (phase II), Rolls-Royce had won contracts in phase I&II of previous VAATE/ADVENT- assuming that the technology is not proprietary, RR experience could be a huge advantage for timely development.
Cynicism is more like doubt on the TF-X, more due to RR already pulling out, BAE may follow suit, and if relations worsen with U.S., the alternate plan of a F110 derivative engine would be out as well.
They could fly the demonstrator(s) with a M88 derivative design. If the SCAF is scheduled to enter into service in the 2030s that leaves enought time to develop the new engine for series production aircraft.
The timeline is much tighter on FCAS (demonstrator by 2025? airframe possible, doubt engine will be ready, systems?). Meanwhile, the Tempest program needs to solidify partnerships. While I don't see the two programs merging (Dassault will see to that), collaboration on propulsion would increase the odds both programs survive.
I wouldn't go on to say that the timeline is much tighter. Everything I hear suggests they are about the same - post 2035. A demonstrator just validates proof of concept. Like with Japan's Shinshin, it will run with a lot of existing equipment - engines, systems, etc. Like you though, I am skeptical that both European programs will make it to market.
Engine dev could delay the project considerably considering the timeline.
You bet. MTU is essentially just a contractor, and even Safran hasn't 'run the show' with engine development in a long while. They got their work cut out for them in both technology development and program management. If it wasn't for the fact that the Tempest is lacking partners I would be picking it to be the next gen European fighter just because I have a lot more faith in Rolls Royce. As it is...we'll see.
They have several point in common (general Layout) but at the same time they look different.
While Eurofighter and rafale were derived by a common preliminary design, however, those ones have not any point in common.
They are however just mock-ups, given the time both would require to develop both of them would change radically IMHO.
They have several point in common (general Layout) but at the same time they look different.
While Eurofighter and rafale were derived by a common preliminary design, however, those ones have not any point in common.
They are however just mock-ups, given the time both would require to develop both of them would change radically IMHO.
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 17th June 2019 at 12:09 Permalink
its full scale, something more or less the size of a mirage 4000 (i will check if you wish). And i'd say it looks like YF23
Physics are the same everywhere...
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 17th June 2019 at 12:17 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
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looks a lot nicer than that tailless design from last year
Posts: 815
By: Ozair - 17th June 2019 at 12:20 Permalink
Will be interesting to see some actual details on the concept, like whether it will have an internal bay with enough size to carry a decent payload.
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 17th June 2019 at 12:23 Permalink
looks a lot bigger and normal sized from this angle! really sexy! hope they stick to this design.
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Posts: 1,120
By: eagle1 - 17th June 2019 at 12:33 Permalink - Edited 17th June 2019 at 12:35
Nice ! Ambitious design.
I am surprised by the size which seems big to me if in the mirage 4000 category. I thought it had to fit the CdG aircraft carrier which shoul have limites the mass.
More pictures here :
https://www.usinenouvelle.com/articl...t-scaf.N855350
The nose is huge...
Posts: 1,120
By: eagle1 - 17th June 2019 at 12:57 Permalink
I like the view from the rear...Big engines, looks that it will be an F15/mirage4000 interceptor performer
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 17th June 2019 at 14:02 Permalink
soemeone on internet ("the mamouth, i bet you now him) has calculated. Size is very close to 4000.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 17th June 2019 at 14:06 Permalink
To admit - and I'm sure some won't like my opinion - I'm more impressed than by the Tempest.
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 17th June 2019 at 14:11 Permalink
Nous nous sommes un peu décus par la présence de dérives Deino.
PS as fa as your opinion is argumented and polite, why should we dislike
PS2there is an english speaking friends topic ;). Will love to see you argue with HK on it!
Posts: 156
By: RALL - 17th June 2019 at 15:02 Permalink
Briliant design.
Posts: 4,082
By: Deino - 17th June 2019 at 15:16 Permalink
To admit I wanted to be as careful as possible since some here and in other forums seem to rate the Tepest as THE ONE and ONLY and so have nothing good to mention in regard to the new French/German-design! ... and I'm sure it will continue that way.
But since this is a French design for sure and we all know what handsome designs they make, why should it be different this time? ;)
Posts: 3,106
By: FBW - 17th June 2019 at 15:52 Permalink - Edited 17th June 2019 at 16:03
PAS19 sees two next gen fighter mockups revealed, can't be anything but a win for defense aviation fans and interest will be high. SCAF, Tempest & TF-X mockups are all "lookers". Don't know if I'm getting old or simply practical, but cynical on the odds of two concurrent European projects coming to fruition. Yes, past experience suggests that it could happen, but both the Rafale and Eurofighter began in the era of large defense budgets.
The timeline is much tighter on FCAS (demonstrator by 2025? airframe possible, doubt engine will be ready, systems?). Meanwhile, the Tempest program needs to solidify partnerships. While I don't see the two programs merging (Dassault will see to that), collaboration on propulsion would increase the odds both programs survive.
Rolls-Royce has already competed in projects for and developed adaptive fan tech. I would like to see a path forward for collaboration on propulsion, software development, and certain systems like: life support, comms, thermal regulation (a BIG concern moving forward). It just makes sense, and would allow more European defense companies to survive into the 2030's. The projects could still have different platforms (H@ll, that's not even the most expensive nor riskiest part of an aircraft program anymore), platform specific sensors.
SCAF/FCAS engine partnership Safran/MTU was announced in Feb, Safran contract for the combustor & HPC designs run until 2024. Engine dev could delay the project considerably considering the timeline. A collaboration with RR could develop a family of adaptive cycle engines around a common core. The US started the ADVENT/AETP programs well over a decade ago for propulsion systems due in 2025 (phase I) and 2030 (phase II), Rolls-Royce had won contracts in phase I&II of previous VAATE/ADVENT- assuming that the technology is not proprietary, RR experience could be a huge advantage for timely development.
Cynicism is more like doubt on the TF-X, more due to RR already pulling out, BAE may follow suit, and if relations worsen with U.S., the alternate plan of a F110 derivative engine would be out as well.
Posts: 113
By: Argo - 17th June 2019 at 16:06 Permalink
They could fly the demonstrator(s) with a M88 derivative design. If the SCAF is scheduled to enter into service in the 2030s that leaves enought time to develop the new engine for series production aircraft.
Posts: 333
By: XB-70 - 17th June 2019 at 16:14 Permalink
I wouldn't go on to say that the timeline is much tighter. Everything I hear suggests they are about the same - post 2035. A demonstrator just validates proof of concept. Like with Japan's Shinshin, it will run with a lot of existing equipment - engines, systems, etc. Like you though, I am skeptical that both European programs will make it to market.
You bet. MTU is essentially just a contractor, and even Safran hasn't 'run the show' with engine development in a long while. They got their work cut out for them in both technology development and program management. If it wasn't for the fact that the Tempest is lacking partners I would be picking it to be the next gen European fighter just because I have a lot more faith in Rolls Royce. As it is...we'll see.
Posts: 149
By: JakobS - 17th June 2019 at 21:43 Permalink
Sorry but I have to be honest, I really don't like the nose of that thing.
Posts: 163
By: J-20 - 17th June 2019 at 23:36 Permalink - Edited 2nd October 2019 at 14:50
oh you like this baby
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over this?
[ATTACH=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","title":"19036823lpw-19036819-article-jpg_6289760.jpg","data-attachmentid":3865674}[/ATTACH]
Posts: 5,396
By: djcross - 18th June 2019 at 00:11 Permalink - Edited 18th June 2019 at 00:12
Both have weapons bays of indeterminate capacity.
One appears to have better vision over nose, better yaw stability, and less potential for aft fuselage/empennage surface stiffness/structural issues.
Both are likely to share similar requirements/technological bases for LO signature, propulsion, sensors and communications.
IMO, its a repeat of the Rafale vs Typhoon programs some 40 years later.
Posts: 1,765
By: Marcellogo - 18th June 2019 at 07:06 Permalink
They have several point in common (general Layout) but at the same time they look different.
While Eurofighter and rafale were derived by a common preliminary design, however, those ones have not any point in common.
They are however just mock-ups, given the time both would require to develop both of them would change radically IMHO.
Posts: 242
By: edi_right_round - 18th June 2019 at 07:19 Permalink
Looks like YF-22,YF-23 and T-50 had a threesome!
Posts: 4,168
By: halloweene - 18th June 2019 at 07:58 Permalink
As Trappier says, "a kit is there to make buzz"