By: Kojedub
- 16th July 2005 at 22:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You see ?this are coffins right ?What do you know about this issue ?
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Posts: 245
By: lovemigs
- 17th July 2005 at 00:38Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
yes but the photos of coffins ?who was in them and when I compare the Gulf war and Allied Force something is abnormal 28 ( Iraqis poorly trained or at least not as well trained as the Yugoslavs ) and 2 by the Yugoslavs plus 30 or so drones
OK, I do not know anything about any coffins, but regarding your teory that YU army are better trained than the iraqis may be true or maybe not, but what you shouldn't forget is that YU was much smaller army than iraq, also the soldiers are only serving I think 9-12 months of compulsory service, and I can assure they receive "stuff all" training, they maybe perfectly capable to defend against any of their neighbours, but not NATO.
As far the airforce is concerned, forget it, there were only a handfull of aircraft that were even remotely capable to fight the modern and well maintained NATO aircraft, and few of them got shot down, and they decided whatever aircraft they have left to be put to "storage".
As far as the real loses, I can not comment one way or the other as I don't know, however as far as damaged aircraft are concerned, I know (from people who seen it), that quite a few damaged ones landed in Skopje - Macedonia, some of my friends there seen few A-10's.
Incidently, a lot of unexploded bombs, fuel tanks etc were found in the mountain in Macedonia near the border. Apparently few unmanned drones crashed there too, that's all I know from local sources - friends or newspapers.
There's a site on the internet that sugests that a lot of NATO planes were shot down like more than one f-117 and even a B-2, but I find it very hard to believe:)
it is possible that the losses are maybe higher, even if for example, the damaged aircraft were written off, but unfortunately there's no evidence to sugest that. ( that I know of)
By: Kapedani
- 17th July 2005 at 07:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The photo of the cofin probably has nothing to do with Operation Allied Force...probably nowhere near Serbia or the Balkans...or it may just be of the dead Apache pilot in Albania. Just becasue some Greek newspaper printed it...doesn't make it any more true than the pictures of the crocodile man printed by tabloit newspapers anywhere else.
You have to understand that if it comes from any Balkan newspaper...you have to take it with a heavy dose of salt.
As for the Apaches in Albania...they were lost to accidents and nothing else. There are videos of both helicopters crashing...and have been shown on TV many times...and it is clear that there was no "enemy" action to bring these helicopters down...they crashed due to malfunctions and not being able to navigate in the Albanian mountains (which is funny because we were always told that our mountains were our best defense...seems true)
As for any other planes shot down by the Serbs...none others except the F-16 and the F-117...
The Serbs were better trained than the Iraqis?? I don't think so. Iraqis had 8 years of extensive war experience with the Iranians where they shot down countless Iranian airplanes...how do Serb SAM operators have more experience than those guys?? Plus Iraq had better SAM systems and radars than the Serbs...plus the western aircraft were better protected by ECM and decoys in 1999 than in 1991. But overall...the Iraqis were certainly better trained, more experienced and better equipped than the Serbs.
But the Iraqi Minister of Information doesn't stand a chance against Venik. I especially love Venik's article on how the Serbs bombed Rinas airport...lol...me being in Tirana at the time and all. He's got maps, type and number of planes, airfield names, unit names, rout flown, enemy planes destroyed...its amazing!! When was it...May 26 1999...what was I doing that day that I missed bombs falling on Rinas Airport??? And the bombing of Tuzla airport too...man he even includes a shot down Serb MiG-21 in that one...makes it a little more beliavable. Very impressive!! We'll have to ask Venik for the names of the involved pilots too...but judging how the Serb magazines have already released the names of their top-scoring MiG-29 pilots...I'm sure he'll have no problem naming some pilots from these operations too.
As for the MiG-29 with the "Annual Inspection" stamp...that was an F-15 fuel tank...the fuel tank jettesoned off by one of the F-15s that shot down the two MiGs. Venik and the Serbs never show anything more than that single video still...not the whole video where you can see its just a fuel tank.
----
But I have a serious question though. There are claims by the KLA that they have indeed shot down at least one Serb jet aircraft over Kosova during the war. Looking at this website, they list one MiG-21 as possibly being lost to the KLA (UCK) near Padesh (and 3 by friendly SAMs!!)http://www.vojska.net/military/srj/airforce/losses.asp
And this page lists one MiG-21 as crashing near Prishtina in May 1998(not saying this was by KLA but just want to know how) http://www.vojska.net/military/srj/airforce/crashed.asp
Is there any information about this loss in 1999?? Could the KLA have indeed shot it down as it claims?? Also KLA claims it also shot down at least one Serb helicopter over Kosova too. Any info on Serb helicopter losses over the regioun during the conflict (which should be from 1998-1999)??
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Posts: 992
By: djnik
- 17th July 2005 at 12:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think this thread should be closed. Kojedub is it seems very uninformed and since he is a new memeber,he doesnt know about the previous posts that were discussed on this matter.
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Posts: 644
By: Dubya
- 17th July 2005 at 13:28Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In regards to Yugoslavia performing less than Iraq. If you take into consideration Iraq in 1991 and Yugoslavia in 1999 then the following emerge:
1. Iraq had a much larger and more modern air defence network that included French made Roland SAMs and more modern interceptors (wasn't 1 F/A-18 shot down by a MiG-25?).
2. Yugoslavia had been under sanctions since the early 1990's. Most Yugoslavian air defences were based on 1960's SA-2 and SA-3. Sanctions made it doubtful whether all systems were at 100%. Indeed YuAF MiG-29's were sent up with defective radars.
3. Allied tactics had changed. For example, the RAF lost several Tornados in 1991 due to low level tactics. In 1999 Allied tactics focused on high level bombing as a result of improved PGM delivery systems and the need to avoid casualties.
4. Allied SEAD and DEAD systems were a lot more advanced in 1999 than in 1991. The Allies had also by 1999 gained access to Soviet missile and radar systems from former Warsaw Pact members so they were perfectly aware of the capabilities of such weapons and how to counter them.
5. Finally I don't know how "well trained" Yugoslav air defence personnel were in 1999 after years of economic stagnation and sanctions. This not only meant less money for spares and new equipment but also less training, especially for interceptor pilots.
Posts: 139
By: Kojedub - 16th July 2005 at 22:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You see ?this are coffins right ?What do you know about this issue ?
Posts: 245
By: lovemigs - 17th July 2005 at 00:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
OK, I do not know anything about any coffins, but regarding your teory that YU army are better trained than the iraqis may be true or maybe not, but what you shouldn't forget is that YU was much smaller army than iraq, also the soldiers are only serving I think 9-12 months of compulsory service, and I can assure they receive "stuff all" training, they maybe perfectly capable to defend against any of their neighbours, but not NATO.
As far the airforce is concerned, forget it, there were only a handfull of aircraft that were even remotely capable to fight the modern and well maintained NATO aircraft, and few of them got shot down, and they decided whatever aircraft they have left to be put to "storage".
As far as the real loses, I can not comment one way or the other as I don't know, however as far as damaged aircraft are concerned, I know (from people who seen it), that quite a few damaged ones landed in Skopje - Macedonia, some of my friends there seen few A-10's.
Incidently, a lot of unexploded bombs, fuel tanks etc were found in the mountain in Macedonia near the border. Apparently few unmanned drones crashed there too, that's all I know from local sources - friends or newspapers.
There's a site on the internet that sugests that a lot of NATO planes were shot down like more than one f-117 and even a B-2, but I find it very hard to believe:)
it is possible that the losses are maybe higher, even if for example, the damaged aircraft were written off, but unfortunately there's no evidence to sugest that. ( that I know of)
just my two cents.
Posts: 553
By: Kapedani - 17th July 2005 at 07:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The photo of the cofin probably has nothing to do with Operation Allied Force...probably nowhere near Serbia or the Balkans...or it may just be of the dead Apache pilot in Albania. Just becasue some Greek newspaper printed it...doesn't make it any more true than the pictures of the crocodile man printed by tabloit newspapers anywhere else.
You have to understand that if it comes from any Balkan newspaper...you have to take it with a heavy dose of salt.
As for the Apaches in Albania...they were lost to accidents and nothing else. There are videos of both helicopters crashing...and have been shown on TV many times...and it is clear that there was no "enemy" action to bring these helicopters down...they crashed due to malfunctions and not being able to navigate in the Albanian mountains (which is funny because we were always told that our mountains were our best defense...seems true)
As for any other planes shot down by the Serbs...none others except the F-16 and the F-117...
The Serbs were better trained than the Iraqis?? I don't think so. Iraqis had 8 years of extensive war experience with the Iranians where they shot down countless Iranian airplanes...how do Serb SAM operators have more experience than those guys?? Plus Iraq had better SAM systems and radars than the Serbs...plus the western aircraft were better protected by ECM and decoys in 1999 than in 1991. But overall...the Iraqis were certainly better trained, more experienced and better equipped than the Serbs.
But the Iraqi Minister of Information doesn't stand a chance against Venik. I especially love Venik's article on how the Serbs bombed Rinas airport...lol...me being in Tirana at the time and all. He's got maps, type and number of planes, airfield names, unit names, rout flown, enemy planes destroyed...its amazing!! When was it...May 26 1999...what was I doing that day that I missed bombs falling on Rinas Airport??? And the bombing of Tuzla airport too...man he even includes a shot down Serb MiG-21 in that one...makes it a little more beliavable. Very impressive!! We'll have to ask Venik for the names of the involved pilots too...but judging how the Serb magazines have already released the names of their top-scoring MiG-29 pilots...I'm sure he'll have no problem naming some pilots from these operations too.
As for the MiG-29 with the "Annual Inspection" stamp...that was an F-15 fuel tank...the fuel tank jettesoned off by one of the F-15s that shot down the two MiGs. Venik and the Serbs never show anything more than that single video still...not the whole video where you can see its just a fuel tank.
----
But I have a serious question though. There are claims by the KLA that they have indeed shot down at least one Serb jet aircraft over Kosova during the war. Looking at this website, they list one MiG-21 as possibly being lost to the KLA (UCK) near Padesh (and 3 by friendly SAMs!!)http://www.vojska.net/military/srj/airforce/losses.asp
And this page lists one MiG-21 as crashing near Prishtina in May 1998(not saying this was by KLA but just want to know how) http://www.vojska.net/military/srj/airforce/crashed.asp
Is there any information about this loss in 1999?? Could the KLA have indeed shot it down as it claims?? Also KLA claims it also shot down at least one Serb helicopter over Kosova too. Any info on Serb helicopter losses over the regioun during the conflict (which should be from 1998-1999)??
Posts: 992
By: djnik - 17th July 2005 at 12:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think this thread should be closed. Kojedub is it seems very uninformed and since he is a new memeber,he doesnt know about the previous posts that were discussed on this matter.
Posts: 644
By: Dubya - 17th July 2005 at 13:28 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In regards to Yugoslavia performing less than Iraq. If you take into consideration Iraq in 1991 and Yugoslavia in 1999 then the following emerge:
1. Iraq had a much larger and more modern air defence network that included French made Roland SAMs and more modern interceptors (wasn't 1 F/A-18 shot down by a MiG-25?).
2. Yugoslavia had been under sanctions since the early 1990's. Most Yugoslavian air defences were based on 1960's SA-2 and SA-3. Sanctions made it doubtful whether all systems were at 100%. Indeed YuAF MiG-29's were sent up with defective radars.
3. Allied tactics had changed. For example, the RAF lost several Tornados in 1991 due to low level tactics. In 1999 Allied tactics focused on high level bombing as a result of improved PGM delivery systems and the need to avoid casualties.
4. Allied SEAD and DEAD systems were a lot more advanced in 1999 than in 1991. The Allies had also by 1999 gained access to Soviet missile and radar systems from former Warsaw Pact members so they were perfectly aware of the capabilities of such weapons and how to counter them.
5. Finally I don't know how "well trained" Yugoslav air defence personnel were in 1999 after years of economic stagnation and sanctions. This not only meant less money for spares and new equipment but also less training, especially for interceptor pilots.
Posts: 139
By: Kojedub - 18th July 2005 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thank you for your info
I just wanted to understand and now it's ok.
PS:Have a look at my info zbout the SAS in the army forum.(MUST SEE)