By: firebar
- 21st August 2008 at 11:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the benefit of the others. That has nothing to do with the engine, but with the inlet-system choosen. Fixed inlets, cone regulated inlets or a ramp-systems.
It has to do with propulsion system, of which the engine is one part.
You missed the point.
The Blackbird and the XB-70 are the only a/c which used mixed compression propulsion systems.
These systems have a great vice in the form of, so called inlet unstarts, when great loss of power occurs , when airflow is not ideal. In case of any slight airflow disturbance, an unstart can happen, with great loss of thrust.
Mach 2 engines all use external compression, so there is no unstarts which can occur.
Do you understand that?
You said earlier that F-4 and F-8 also suffer from unstarts !!!
By: Sens
- 21st August 2008 at 13:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It has to do with propulsion system, of which the engine is one part.
You missed the point.
The Blackbird and the XB-70 are the only a/c which used mixed compression propulsion systems.
These systems have a great vice in the form of, so called inlet unstarts, when great loss of power occurs , when airflow is not ideal. In case of any slight airflow disturbance, an unstart can happen, with great loss of thrust.
Mach 2 engines all use external compression, so there is no unstarts which can occur.
Do you understand that?
You said earlier that F-4 and F-8 also suffer from unstarts !!!
Neither the Blackbird nor the MiG-25 propulsion systems are useful at subsonic to transonic speeds and by that useless in a serious fighter role.
The Blackbird find a niche in the recce role and the smaller Foxbat did similar and in the interceptor role too.
Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.
By: firebar
- 22nd August 2008 at 12:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What? I thought the Blackbird has never been in combat?
Its mission planing team did everything to avoid combat zones. That was one case when they made a mistake.
The same thing refers to F-117 also.
Its mission planning is the most important part its stealth capabilities.
Read Aviation Week. It was shot down over Serbia when, by error, EA-6B Prowler has been too distant from attacking F-117, so that F-117 could not be covered by its ECM jamming capabilities. When it came too close to SAM-3 missile site, it was shot down without too much problems.
By: firebar
- 22nd August 2008 at 14:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Neither the Blackbird nor the MiG-25 propulsion systems are useful at subsonic to transonic speeds and by that useless in a serious fighter role.
That applies to Blackbirds propulsion system, as it used mixed compression which suffers from unstarts, by its nature.
As for Mig-25, it is maneuverable at subsonic speeds also. You may note that it has variable geometry lower intake lip. It is used to control airstreem at lower speeds, at higher angle of attacks. It is very complex system used also to control intake airspeed at higher speeds.
That was not found in any west fighter.
It has special vanes which control airstreem in the middle of airduct, also not found in any west aircraft.
Because of that, it do not suffer from unstarts.
When you combine that with transsonic compresor, with no western equivalent (as has been noted in International Defense Review after Mig examination in Japan 1976), you will get the picture about Mig-25s propulsion system.
It is one incredible solution. A propulsion system capable of Mach 3 and in the same time capable of all normal fighter maneuvers: loops, rolls,split-s, zoom climbs, etc.
That is something not found in any western Mach 3 aircraft, whether in service or experimental.
[/QUOTE]Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.[/QUOTE]
The satelites can not possibly replace tactical maned reconn a/c. They are too inflexible, can not be returned to the same spot fast, have no such short alert time, etc,etc.
By: wrightwing
- 22nd August 2008 at 14:21Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That applies to Blackbirds propulsion system, as it used mixed compression which suffers from unstarts, by its nature.
As for Mig-25, it is maneuverable at subsonic speeds also. You may note that it has variable geometry lower intake lip. It is used to control airstreem at lower speeds, at higher angle of attacks. It is very complex system used also to control intake airspeed at higher speeds.
That was not found in any west fighter.
It has special vanes which control airstreem in the middle of airduct, also not found in any west aircraft.
Because of that, it do not suffer from unstarts.
When you combine that with transsonic compresor, with no western equivalent (as has been noted in International Defense Review after Mig examination in Japan 1976), you will get the picture about Mig-25s propulsion system.
It is one incredible solution. A propulsion system capable of Mach 3 and in the same time capable of all normal fighter maneuvers: loops, rolls,split-s, zoom climbs, etc.
That is something not found in any western Mach 3 aircraft, whether in service or experimental.
Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.[/QUOTE]
The satelites can not possibly replace tactical maned reconn a/c. They are too inflexible, can not be returned to the same spot fast, have no such short alert time, etc,etc.[/QUOTE]
So what are the instantaneous, and sustained turn rates, roll rates, turn radius, etc... for the Mig 25? Just because it has a strong airframe, doesn't mean that it's nimble.
By: SOC
- 22nd August 2008 at 19:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The mission planning for SR-71 avoids any combat zones.
No it doesn't, they flew within DDR and WarPac S-200 range all the time during the Cold War. They also flew within range of Soviet S-200s on Kamchatka as well specifically to get the operators to activate the SUQRE PAIR radars and collect ELINT data. SR-71As also flew right over Vietnam during that war on a regular basis staging out of Kadena. And if they flew over Libya they were certainly inside S-200 range there as well as damn near the entire nation and a good chunk of the Med is covered.
It was a close call. A lucky escape for Blackbird. So, parts of missile body struct the Blackbird. Wow. Even higher accuracy is needed to achieve this.
Only one small part. It didn't cause any damage, it was just lodged in one of the corrugations on the undersurface of the wing. And that was an early sortie, they flew over North Korea and then Vietnam for a while after that. Higher accuracy? Or not. The warhead is designed to detonate and do damage within a certain blast radius. When it goes off the rest of the missile tends to go with it, especially if there is any propellant left, but the missile body fragments go wherever they want to.
As it is known now, the A-12 never dared to overfly Vietnam again, and it is retired soon.
And some sources say that it had higher performance than SR-71.
It had marginally higher performance being a lighter weight aircraft, yes. And they still flew over Vietnam. So did the SR-71. The reason the A-12 was retired was because the CIA couldn't justify keeping that expensive an asset around when the USAF was going to have a lot more of them and a better chance of operating them on a continuous basis. The A-12s left Kadena after being replaced by SR-71s which took over their reconnaissance mission.
Just imagine what could SAM-5 do to SR-71. It would be slaughter.
But mission planning did its job for SR-71 well, to avoid such threats.
A lot of things were avoided because manned reconnaissance aircraft were no longer used to overfly the USSR or Warsaw Pact client states. That had nothing to do with the aircraft.
And yes, the S-200 should have not had a problem dealing with a Blackbird, it was designed for interceptions in that envelope.
Oh, and a lot of the XB-70 unstarts? They were done on purpose to refine the performance of the AICS in anticipation of its use on a potential Mach 3 SST being conceived at the time. Unstarts were when the shock wave popped out of the intake, and it was reinserted by opening bypass doors. In the first jet thsoe doors were manually controlled leading to a lot of interesting experiences, but the second jet had an automated system. An unstart by itself was not a serious problem provided the bypass doors immediately corrected it. The problem was when it wasn't corrected fast enough, typically in the manual system, and too much air ended up trying to force its way down the intake. Then you got what they called duct buzz when the whole assembly began to vibrate, which could have led to structural failure if it wasn't dealt with. The Blackbird's intake system, even once they got the automated system figured out, was still more tempermental as it was designed with their low RCS ideas in mind.
By: martinez
- 23rd August 2008 at 15:29Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No it doesn't, they flew within DDR and WarPac S-200 range all the time during the Cold War.
.
The SR-71 kept a safe distance away from WarPac state borders, so describe it as a combat zone is a bit strange. We knew the SR-71 is flying its "harmless" recce mission leaving the S-200 sites cold, no preparations for launch or set the S-200 missile on the launch position.
The S-200 Vega site at Dobrish in former Czechoslovakia...in detail http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega.html
Czechoslovakia map with S-200 ranges depicted, look for two green dots with black circles. http://forum.fortifikace.net/files/pvos_164.jpg
Only one small part. It didn't cause any damage, it was just lodged in one of the corrugations on the undersurface of the wing.
A small part made of light alloyed metal from missile body doing more than seven thousand steel fragments comming from the warhead shell after detonation. Very interesting story indeed. :rolleyes:
By: Sens
- 23rd August 2008 at 17:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The SR-71 kept a safe distance away from WarPac state borders, so describe it as a combat zone is a bit strange. We knew the SR-71 is flying its "harmless" recce mission leaving the S-200 sites cold, no preparations for launch or set the S-200 missile on the launch position.
The S-200 Vega site at Dobrish in former Czechoslovakia...in detail http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega.html
Czechoslovakia map with S-200 ranges depicted, look for two green dots with black circles. http://forum.fortifikace.net/files/pvos_164.jpg
A small part made of light alloyed metal from missile body doing more than seven thousand steel fragments comming from the warhead shell after detonation. Very interesting story indeed. :rolleyes:
That frog-eye view aside. The SR-71 from Mildenhall did trigger alert, when the preperations for a mission were spotted in advance. The top-up was done 7 minutes after take-off over the North Sea by KC-135Q. After that it did the "Dipsy-manouver" to go supersonic and climb with a constant KEAS.
After that it became clear if the northern leg over the Baltic or the souther leg alongside the ADIZ was choosen. In the GDR, the MiG-25PD from the 787. IAP at Finow AB were positioned high-up and high supersonic for the opportunity of an intercept, when passing the ADIZ.
The 43. FRB in Sanitz with FRAG-431 in Prangendorf/Cammin with Wega S-200 was tasked in a similar way.
The Baltic sea gap between Sweden and the GDR was 60 km only. That leaves a passing corridor of 20 km only or the SR-71 did violate the airspace of the GDR or Sweden. For the SR-71 and its sensors the Baltic fleet of the SU and the AD units alongside the coast were of prime intrest f.e..
To the south of the GDR the 51. FRB with FRAG-511 and the 41. FRB with FRAG-411 did field Wega. The FRAG-511 was reequipped with Angora S-300, but all systems were handed back in 1990 to the SU. ;)
By: SOC
- 24th August 2008 at 20:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was also a Soviet S-200 site east of Madgeburg, placing 4 S-200 sites in the DDR. The DDR S-300PMU unit wasn't FRAG-511, it was FLA-4351 of FRBr 43.
Martinez, that link on Czechoslovakian SAM sites is outstanding.
By: Sens
- 24th August 2008 at 23:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was also a Soviet S-200 site east of Madgeburg, placing 4 S-200 sites in the DDR. The DDR S-300PMU unit wasn't FRAG-511, it was FLA-4351 of FRBr 43.
Martinez, that link on Czechoslovakian SAM sites is outstanding.
202.Fla Raketen Brigade Magdeburg SA 12 ;)
About the FRA-4351 you are correct and my claim about FRAG-511 was a mistake in a double way. It was not even the second unit in transition. :eek:
By: SOC
- 25th August 2008 at 20:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've just been digging around the CIA's FOIA website, and there is a lot of stuff in there on the OXCART flight, BX6734, when they found the SA-2 fragment.
By: martinez
- 25th August 2008 at 20:49Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've just been digging around the CIA's FOIA website, and there is a lot of stuff in there on the OXCART flight, BX6734, when they found the SA-2 fragment.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 21st August 2008 at 11:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It has to do with propulsion system, of which the engine is one part.
You missed the point.
The Blackbird and the XB-70 are the only a/c which used mixed compression propulsion systems.
These systems have a great vice in the form of, so called inlet unstarts, when great loss of power occurs , when airflow is not ideal. In case of any slight airflow disturbance, an unstart can happen, with great loss of thrust.
Mach 2 engines all use external compression, so there is no unstarts which can occur.
Do you understand that?
You said earlier that F-4 and F-8 also suffer from unstarts !!!
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 21st August 2008 at 11:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The reminder:
-The Phoenixes are retired from service on 2004, a few years before F-14.
It was because the missile showed itself as totaly unuseful.
In Gulf wars it achieved nothing. Not one kill. It even missed Iraqi Mi-8 helicopter in 1991.!!!
And all this in clear enviroment.
Just imagine what would happen if Iraqis used ECM jamming.!!
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 21st August 2008 at 12:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What? I thought the Blackbird has never been in combat?
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 21st August 2008 at 12:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So is the fuel. Maybe it's the fuels fault. :rolleyes:
They did. According to their test pilots. Do you know better than they? :rolleyes:
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 21st August 2008 at 13:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
For the benefit of the others.
http://www.patentstorm.us/patents/5971000/description.html
Neither the Blackbird nor the MiG-25 propulsion systems are useful at subsonic to transonic speeds and by that useless in a serious fighter role.
The Blackbird find a niche in the recce role and the smaller Foxbat did similar and in the interceptor role too.
Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 22nd August 2008 at 12:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its mission planing team did everything to avoid combat zones. That was one case when they made a mistake.
The same thing refers to F-117 also.
Its mission planning is the most important part its stealth capabilities.
Read Aviation Week. It was shot down over Serbia when, by error, EA-6B Prowler has been too distant from attacking F-117, so that F-117 could not be covered by its ECM jamming capabilities. When it came too close to SAM-3 missile site, it was shot down without too much problems.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 22nd August 2008 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes, I know better, if they said that.
Posts: 9,683
By: sferrin - 22nd August 2008 at 13:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well there you have it. Fanboydom at it's best.
Posts: 875
By: firebar - 22nd August 2008 at 14:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That applies to Blackbirds propulsion system, as it used mixed compression which suffers from unstarts, by its nature.
As for Mig-25, it is maneuverable at subsonic speeds also. You may note that it has variable geometry lower intake lip. It is used to control airstreem at lower speeds, at higher angle of attacks. It is very complex system used also to control intake airspeed at higher speeds.
That was not found in any west fighter.
It has special vanes which control airstreem in the middle of airduct, also not found in any west aircraft.
Because of that, it do not suffer from unstarts.
When you combine that with transsonic compresor, with no western equivalent (as has been noted in International Defense Review after Mig examination in Japan 1976), you will get the picture about Mig-25s propulsion system.
It is one incredible solution. A propulsion system capable of Mach 3 and in the same time capable of all normal fighter maneuvers: loops, rolls,split-s, zoom climbs, etc.
That is something not found in any western Mach 3 aircraft, whether in service or experimental.
[/QUOTE]Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.[/QUOTE]
The satelites can not possibly replace tactical maned reconn a/c. They are too inflexible, can not be returned to the same spot fast, have no such short alert time, etc,etc.
Posts: 4,042
By: wrightwing - 22nd August 2008 at 14:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Since the 90s high resolution pics can be bought for the fraction of cost by a manned system.[/QUOTE]The satelites can not possibly replace tactical maned reconn a/c. They are too inflexible, can not be returned to the same spot fast, have no such short alert time, etc,etc.[/QUOTE]
So what are the instantaneous, and sustained turn rates, roll rates, turn radius, etc... for the Mig 25? Just because it has a strong airframe, doesn't mean that it's nimble.
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 22nd August 2008 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No it doesn't, they flew within DDR and WarPac S-200 range all the time during the Cold War. They also flew within range of Soviet S-200s on Kamchatka as well specifically to get the operators to activate the SUQRE PAIR radars and collect ELINT data. SR-71As also flew right over Vietnam during that war on a regular basis staging out of Kadena. And if they flew over Libya they were certainly inside S-200 range there as well as damn near the entire nation and a good chunk of the Med is covered.
Only one small part. It didn't cause any damage, it was just lodged in one of the corrugations on the undersurface of the wing. And that was an early sortie, they flew over North Korea and then Vietnam for a while after that. Higher accuracy? Or not. The warhead is designed to detonate and do damage within a certain blast radius. When it goes off the rest of the missile tends to go with it, especially if there is any propellant left, but the missile body fragments go wherever they want to.
It had marginally higher performance being a lighter weight aircraft, yes. And they still flew over Vietnam. So did the SR-71. The reason the A-12 was retired was because the CIA couldn't justify keeping that expensive an asset around when the USAF was going to have a lot more of them and a better chance of operating them on a continuous basis. The A-12s left Kadena after being replaced by SR-71s which took over their reconnaissance mission.
A lot of things were avoided because manned reconnaissance aircraft were no longer used to overfly the USSR or Warsaw Pact client states. That had nothing to do with the aircraft.
And yes, the S-200 should have not had a problem dealing with a Blackbird, it was designed for interceptions in that envelope.
Oh, and a lot of the XB-70 unstarts? They were done on purpose to refine the performance of the AICS in anticipation of its use on a potential Mach 3 SST being conceived at the time. Unstarts were when the shock wave popped out of the intake, and it was reinserted by opening bypass doors. In the first jet thsoe doors were manually controlled leading to a lot of interesting experiences, but the second jet had an automated system. An unstart by itself was not a serious problem provided the bypass doors immediately corrected it. The problem was when it wasn't corrected fast enough, typically in the manual system, and too much air ended up trying to force its way down the intake. Then you got what they called duct buzz when the whole assembly began to vibrate, which could have led to structural failure if it wasn't dealt with. The Blackbird's intake system, even once they got the automated system figured out, was still more tempermental as it was designed with their low RCS ideas in mind.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 23rd August 2008 at 15:29 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The SR-71 kept a safe distance away from WarPac state borders, so describe it as a combat zone is a bit strange. We knew the SR-71 is flying its "harmless" recce mission leaving the S-200 sites cold, no preparations for launch or set the S-200 missile on the launch position.
The S-200 Vega site at Dobrish in former Czechoslovakia...in detail
http://www.fortifikace.net/pov_pvos_skupina_vega.html
Czechoslovakia map with S-200 ranges depicted, look for two green dots with black circles.
http://forum.fortifikace.net/files/pvos_164.jpg
A small part made of light alloyed metal from missile body doing more than seven thousand steel fragments comming from the warhead shell after detonation. Very interesting story indeed. :rolleyes:
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 23rd August 2008 at 17:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That frog-eye view aside. The SR-71 from Mildenhall did trigger alert, when the preperations for a mission were spotted in advance. The top-up was done 7 minutes after take-off over the North Sea by KC-135Q. After that it did the "Dipsy-manouver" to go supersonic and climb with a constant KEAS.
After that it became clear if the northern leg over the Baltic or the souther leg alongside the ADIZ was choosen. In the GDR, the MiG-25PD from the 787. IAP at Finow AB were positioned high-up and high supersonic for the opportunity of an intercept, when passing the ADIZ.
The 43. FRB in Sanitz with FRAG-431 in Prangendorf/Cammin with Wega S-200 was tasked in a similar way.
The Baltic sea gap between Sweden and the GDR was 60 km only. That leaves a passing corridor of 20 km only or the SR-71 did violate the airspace of the GDR or Sweden. For the SR-71 and its sensors the Baltic fleet of the SU and the AD units alongside the coast were of prime intrest f.e..
To the south of the GDR the 51. FRB with FRAG-511 and the 41. FRB with FRAG-411 did field Wega. The FRAG-511 was reequipped with Angora S-300, but all systems were handed back in 1990 to the SU. ;)
http://www.s200-wega.de/
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 24th August 2008 at 20:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was also a Soviet S-200 site east of Madgeburg, placing 4 S-200 sites in the DDR. The DDR S-300PMU unit wasn't FRAG-511, it was FLA-4351 of FRBr 43.
Martinez, that link on Czechoslovakian SAM sites is outstanding.
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 24th August 2008 at 23:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
202.Fla Raketen Brigade Magdeburg SA 12 ;)
About the FRA-4351 you are correct and my claim about FRAG-511 was a mistake in a double way. It was not even the second unit in transition. :eek:
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 25th August 2008 at 03:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Were the S-300Vs DDR assets or were they a Soviet unit like Madgeburg's S-200 and most of the S-125s?
Posts: 11,742
By: Sens - 25th August 2008 at 15:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Soviet unit.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 25th August 2008 at 20:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I thought it will be interesting for you. The website is written by ex-PVO guys, so hopefully you can navigate, read or translate...:)
some other post-war PVO sites...
http://www.fortifikace.net/povalecne_pvos.html
Posts: 12,009
By: SOC - 25th August 2008 at 20:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I've just been digging around the CIA's FOIA website, and there is a lot of stuff in there on the OXCART flight, BX6734, when they found the SA-2 fragment.
Posts: 1,189
By: martinez - 25th August 2008 at 20:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
How the SA-2 fragment looked like?
Similar to this?