By: El_Indigo
- 14th March 2014 at 22:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Holy **** is this frustrating. ******* Zimbabwe has a better navy and shipbuilding capacity at this point.
So much for being easy to build and delivere on time. Grigorovich was already behind schedule and seeing as it doesn't even have any of it's armament or even is barely finished on the inside it will take another ******* 4 years no doubt. ******* Noah build the ark faster for **** sakes.
At least it looks like it'll have 12 UKSK VLS.
Also why are they working on Ivan Gren again ? Scrap that piece of **** and build something that actually meets the future requirements.
By: TR1
- 14th March 2014 at 22:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Relax. The contract was for 4 years, looks like it will be missed by a year.
Not good, but not terrible in the grand scheme of things either.
I don't think it will have two UKSK modules.
However the new A-190 stealth turret + VLS Shtil more than makes up for that.
The launch is pretty lacking in terms of weapons (no Shtil, no turret, no RBU, no AK-630) just for starters, I think they are doing it to make slip space + start propulsion trials.
By: Blitzo
- 14th March 2014 at 22:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm, Yantar built the last three of the six talwars for the Indian navy, and it took an average of two and a half years for them to go from launch to commissioning. Unless they'd dramatically improved their efficiency I can't imagine they can manage the entire fitting out and sea trial process in just a year. Two years is more realistic, or one and a half years, perhaps.
And the fact that it took them four years from lay down to launch is still rather concerning. It is almost as long as Indian shipyards take to launch one of their ships.
By: El_Indigo
- 14th March 2014 at 22:50Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It looks from the inside not remotely ready at all TR1. This is just beyond frustrating at this point. I don't understand why it takes so long to build a ship of that size. Yantar shipyards has for the most part already built this vessels before. They are pretty well staffed for the most part and the MoD been making payments on time at least since 2012.
By: TR1
- 14th March 2014 at 23:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ship was laid down late 2010. Given how early in 2014 it is right now, they have until basically the end of 2015 to finish everything up, and hand the project over after 5 years.
I am confident they will make that date, or not miss it by much.
These ships have some differences from the Talwars. The A-190s issues were only recently resolved, and VLS Shtil has its own developmental timelines. Pretty sure they have much more modern combat information system, though I don't recall if the last Talwars have it as well.
I will gladly take a year or so of extra construction time and trials for those advancements.
As for general construction pace, mail your letters to the Russian MOD and ask them about their procurement policies :) .
They set the pace, not Yantar.
By: Blitzo
- 14th March 2014 at 23:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh there is no doubt the grigorovich class will be more modern than the talwars, I'm just not sure if they'll be fitted out and enter service any faster, which tbh should be a reasonable expectation even accounting for newer systems, considering this ship should be a familiar design by now. However the fact that they still took three years from lay down to launch, and in a relatively incomplete state, gives the impression that fitting out and trials will be a similarly long process.
I'm not too familiar with the situation, but I suspect it is the shipyard's limitations forcing the MoD to do a longer contract than the MoD wanting to drag out the construction process and receive a warship later rather than sooner.
At the very least, I would be very impressed if they can get this ship in service within a year. I expect they'll be quicker about epithelium fabrication process for hulls 2 onwards as well, now they've sharpened their teeth again.
By: Andraxxus
- 14th March 2014 at 23:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think you all are neglecting the fact Yantar laid down 3 Talwars with small intervals. Manpower was seperated to 3 ships. From the laying down of first ship, to delivery of last ship, whole construction process of 3 ships took 4 years.
Now Yantar has 5 Grigorovich class frigates currently under construction at the same time, with preparations for laying down the 6th.
While first ship MAY be delayed more than 5 years, but its still a success if all 6 is delivered in 2016 as planned; it would make 1 year per ship on average and noticably faster than the construction of Talwar classes.
By: Blitzo
- 15th March 2014 at 00:30Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When was INS Teg (the first Yantar talwar) laid down?
If they can get all six commissioned by 2016 I would be very impressed.
But if we take an optimistic estimate of one year needed for each ship to be fit out and trialled after launch, then Yantar will need to launch all the remaining boats 2-6 by late next year to meet the 2016 deadline.
By: Andraxxus
- 15th March 2014 at 00:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
November 2009 says wiki, and commissioned in april 2012; took approx 2 years 5 months. Last Talwar laid down in May 2011 and comissioned in june 2013, took around 2 years 1 month.
I believe its possible, since first ship took 4 years to launch; assuming a) 6 ships working in paralel instead of 3, b) ships needing same man hours for completion, c) shipyard has same construction capability as in year 2012; its understandable that 1st ship took 4 years to launch (6/3*2,5 years = 5 years to comissioning) . 2nd may also take similar amount time, but following ships are likely to be launched and completed more quickly, as manpower will be intensified on lessening number of ships, 2016 is maybe a little optimistic but 2017 sounds pretty achievable to me.
By: TR1
- 15th March 2014 at 01:39Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
2017 at the earliest is what I suspect will happen for all 6 ships.
Blitzo: The MOD is infamous for being late or non-compliant with payments.
Just look @ the 20380 situation at Severnaya, the hulls were conserved in the slip for some time while they waited funding to actually get through.
Even as recently as the Yeketerinburg repairs: Zvezdochka had to start work on their own funds while waiting for the MOD to come through.
I am FAR more inclined to blame MoD for the pace than Yantar. With subsystems for the ships, the delays are much the fault of the MOD too. They starved some of these entities for funding for years and expect sudden cash flow to fix everything quickly.
By: YU1
- 15th March 2014 at 08:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pics of Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Admiral Essen does not look much different than what she looked six months ago but Admiral Makarov is coming nicely.
By: Blitzo
- 16th March 2014 at 03:41Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When is she expected to be commissioned? Wikipedia says 2013 but obviously that isn't the case.
Most of the sensors look finished and ready, but the absence of the main gun is still notable.
Also, can 9M96 or 9M100 be quad packed in the Redut VLS? (Going by 9M100's diameter, I imagine it can be)
Finally, is it 9M96 or 9M96E/M which is equipped on gorshkov? The E/M appears to be a medium range missile with a range of 40km(?) and the 9M96 appears to be a long range SAM of 120km?
By: TR1
- 16th March 2014 at 05:32Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It will carry both 9M96M and 9M96M2. The latter supposedly reaches out to 150km in the domestic variant.
20380 I think will stick to just the domestic variant of the 40km 9M96E.
As to how many missiles are per cell, it is a matter of some debate. I think one cell= 1 9M96. Some folks think it is 4 per cell.
9M100 I think is still rumors and nothing concrete as far as Gorshkov is concerned.
By: El_Indigo
- 16th March 2014 at 14:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It will carry both and 9M96M2. The latter supposedly reaches out to 150km in the domestic variant.
20380 I think will stick to just the domestic variant of the 40km 9M96E.
So wait there are four domestic variants of the 9M96 missiles ? The 9M96, 9M96D, 9m96M and 9m96M2 ? I knew that domestic versions of 9M96 were supposed to reach out to 60 Km and 150 km i mthought they were under the label 9M96, 9M96D.
As to how many missiles are per cell, it is a matter of some debate. I think one cell= 1 9M96. Some folks think it is 4 per cell.
9M100 I think is still rumors and nothing concrete as far as Gorshkov is concerned.
The cell's look to be around 0,5 meters in diameter if not tad more. I can totally see 4 9M100 fitting in there.
By: Neptune
- 16th March 2014 at 14:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As for the speed of construction of Grigorevich class. First of all, we don't know what is and what is not done on the inside of these ships. Secondly, we don't know the exact contract. They may have clauses to delay in there. It might even be a request by the customer (VMF), due to the bases for these ships not being ready etc.
For the yard itself it may be even better and more economic to work with less people and delay the construction (with consequential fine if there is one) than to speed up construction and end up without a job (and firing more people) after.
A lot of unknown factors in there. There are reasons for everything, whether we'll ever know them, that's the question.
Will these ships have Kashtan or Palma? The spot is already prepared as well as the spot for the guidance radar. Another difference with the Talwars is that the aft is enclosed rather than open, although I suppose that's just a weather cover with everything inside being similar to Talwar.
Posts: 275
By: El_Indigo - 14th March 2014 at 22:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Holy **** is this frustrating. ******* Zimbabwe has a better navy and shipbuilding capacity at this point.
So much for being easy to build and delivere on time. Grigorovich was already behind schedule and seeing as it doesn't even have any of it's armament or even is barely finished on the inside it will take another ******* 4 years no doubt. ******* Noah build the ark faster for **** sakes.
At least it looks like it'll have 12 UKSK VLS.
Also why are they working on Ivan Gren again ? Scrap that piece of **** and build something that actually meets the future requirements.
God ******* dammit.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 14th March 2014 at 22:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Relax. The contract was for 4 years, looks like it will be missed by a year.
Not good, but not terrible in the grand scheme of things either.
I don't think it will have two UKSK modules.
However the new A-190 stealth turret + VLS Shtil more than makes up for that.
The launch is pretty lacking in terms of weapons (no Shtil, no turret, no RBU, no AK-630) just for starters, I think they are doing it to make slip space + start propulsion trials.
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 14th March 2014 at 22:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Hmm, Yantar built the last three of the six talwars for the Indian navy, and it took an average of two and a half years for them to go from launch to commissioning. Unless they'd dramatically improved their efficiency I can't imagine they can manage the entire fitting out and sea trial process in just a year. Two years is more realistic, or one and a half years, perhaps.
And the fact that it took them four years from lay down to launch is still rather concerning. It is almost as long as Indian shipyards take to launch one of their ships.
Posts: 275
By: El_Indigo - 14th March 2014 at 22:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It looks from the inside not remotely ready at all TR1. This is just beyond frustrating at this point. I don't understand why it takes so long to build a ship of that size. Yantar shipyards has for the most part already built this vessels before. They are pretty well staffed for the most part and the MoD been making payments on time at least since 2012.
So what's going on ?
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 14th March 2014 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The ship was laid down late 2010. Given how early in 2014 it is right now, they have until basically the end of 2015 to finish everything up, and hand the project over after 5 years.
I am confident they will make that date, or not miss it by much.
These ships have some differences from the Talwars. The A-190s issues were only recently resolved, and VLS Shtil has its own developmental timelines. Pretty sure they have much more modern combat information system, though I don't recall if the last Talwars have it as well.
I will gladly take a year or so of extra construction time and trials for those advancements.
As for general construction pace, mail your letters to the Russian MOD and ask them about their procurement policies :) .
They set the pace, not Yantar.
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 14th March 2014 at 23:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Oh there is no doubt the grigorovich class will be more modern than the talwars, I'm just not sure if they'll be fitted out and enter service any faster, which tbh should be a reasonable expectation even accounting for newer systems, considering this ship should be a familiar design by now. However the fact that they still took three years from lay down to launch, and in a relatively incomplete state, gives the impression that fitting out and trials will be a similarly long process.
I'm not too familiar with the situation, but I suspect it is the shipyard's limitations forcing the MoD to do a longer contract than the MoD wanting to drag out the construction process and receive a warship later rather than sooner.
At the very least, I would be very impressed if they can get this ship in service within a year. I expect they'll be quicker about epithelium fabrication process for hulls 2 onwards as well, now they've sharpened their teeth again.
Posts: 932
By: Andraxxus - 14th March 2014 at 23:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think you all are neglecting the fact Yantar laid down 3 Talwars with small intervals. Manpower was seperated to 3 ships. From the laying down of first ship, to delivery of last ship, whole construction process of 3 ships took 4 years.
Now Yantar has 5 Grigorovich class frigates currently under construction at the same time, with preparations for laying down the 6th.
While first ship MAY be delayed more than 5 years, but its still a success if all 6 is delivered in 2016 as planned; it would make 1 year per ship on average and noticably faster than the construction of Talwar classes.
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 15th March 2014 at 00:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When was INS Teg (the first Yantar talwar) laid down?
If they can get all six commissioned by 2016 I would be very impressed.
But if we take an optimistic estimate of one year needed for each ship to be fit out and trialled after launch, then Yantar will need to launch all the remaining boats 2-6 by late next year to meet the 2016 deadline.
Posts: 932
By: Andraxxus - 15th March 2014 at 00:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
November 2009 says wiki, and commissioned in april 2012; took approx 2 years 5 months. Last Talwar laid down in May 2011 and comissioned in june 2013, took around 2 years 1 month.
I believe its possible, since first ship took 4 years to launch; assuming a) 6 ships working in paralel instead of 3, b) ships needing same man hours for completion, c) shipyard has same construction capability as in year 2012; its understandable that 1st ship took 4 years to launch (6/3*2,5 years = 5 years to comissioning) . 2nd may also take similar amount time, but following ships are likely to be launched and completed more quickly, as manpower will be intensified on lessening number of ships, 2016 is maybe a little optimistic but 2017 sounds pretty achievable to me.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 15th March 2014 at 01:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
2017 at the earliest is what I suspect will happen for all 6 ships.
Blitzo: The MOD is infamous for being late or non-compliant with payments.
Just look @ the 20380 situation at Severnaya, the hulls were conserved in the slip for some time while they waited funding to actually get through.
Even as recently as the Yeketerinburg repairs: Zvezdochka had to start work on their own funds while waiting for the MOD to come through.
I am FAR more inclined to blame MoD for the pace than Yantar. With subsystems for the ships, the delays are much the fault of the MOD too. They starved some of these entities for funding for years and expect sudden cash flow to fix everything quickly.
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 15th March 2014 at 01:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks both for the info :)
Is there a reason the MoD is late or non compliant with payment? Shortage of funds, corruption, or just bureaucratic inefficiency
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 15th March 2014 at 02:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
All of the above.
Though the money situation changed rapidly (for the better) around 2008-2009.
Posts: 241
By: YU1 - 15th March 2014 at 08:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Pics of Admiral Essen and Admiral Makarov. Admiral Essen does not look much different than what she looked six months ago but Admiral Makarov is coming nicely.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 15th March 2014 at 23:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://voenternet.ru/tobeprepared/2014/03/15/%D1%81%D0%BA%D1%80-%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB-%D0%B3%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%B3%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87-%D0%B4%D0%BB%D1%8F-%D1%84%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%82%D0%B0/
Good pics of teh launch.
Bad weather delaying the actual procedure.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 16th March 2014 at 00:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And a bit higher res photo of the Gorshkov:
Posts: 1,299
By: Blitzo - 16th March 2014 at 03:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When is she expected to be commissioned? Wikipedia says 2013 but obviously that isn't the case.
Most of the sensors look finished and ready, but the absence of the main gun is still notable.
Also, can 9M96 or 9M100 be quad packed in the Redut VLS? (Going by 9M100's diameter, I imagine it can be)
Finally, is it 9M96 or 9M96E/M which is equipped on gorshkov? The E/M appears to be a medium range missile with a range of 40km(?) and the 9M96 appears to be a long range SAM of 120km?
Cheers.
Posts: 9,579
By: TR1 - 16th March 2014 at 05:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It will carry both 9M96M and 9M96M2. The latter supposedly reaches out to 150km in the domestic variant.
20380 I think will stick to just the domestic variant of the 40km 9M96E.
As to how many missiles are per cell, it is a matter of some debate. I think one cell= 1 9M96. Some folks think it is 4 per cell.
9M100 I think is still rumors and nothing concrete as far as Gorshkov is concerned.
Posts: 1,344
By: paralay - 16th March 2014 at 11:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[ATTACH=CONFIG]226431[/ATTACH]
Posts: 275
By: El_Indigo - 16th March 2014 at 14:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So wait there are four domestic variants of the 9M96 missiles ? The 9M96, 9M96D, 9m96M and 9m96M2 ? I knew that domestic versions of 9M96 were supposed to reach out to 60 Km and 150 km i mthought they were under the label 9M96, 9M96D.
The cell's look to be around 0,5 meters in diameter if not tad more. I can totally see 4 9M100 fitting in there.
Posts: 627
By: Neptune - 16th March 2014 at 14:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As for the speed of construction of Grigorevich class. First of all, we don't know what is and what is not done on the inside of these ships. Secondly, we don't know the exact contract. They may have clauses to delay in there. It might even be a request by the customer (VMF), due to the bases for these ships not being ready etc.
For the yard itself it may be even better and more economic to work with less people and delay the construction (with consequential fine if there is one) than to speed up construction and end up without a job (and firing more people) after.
A lot of unknown factors in there. There are reasons for everything, whether we'll ever know them, that's the question.
Will these ships have Kashtan or Palma? The spot is already prepared as well as the spot for the guidance radar. Another difference with the Talwars is that the aft is enclosed rather than open, although I suppose that's just a weather cover with everything inside being similar to Talwar.