By: Monsun
- 11th October 2010 at 17:52Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Venom NF had a few things going for it such as a better performance than the Meteor NF and side-by-side seating which was popular (if rather cramped) and power ailerons (NF.3).
On the downside it had a single engine which occasionaly flamed out without warning, especially the NF.3 (Dowty fuel system). With no ejection seats most attempted a belly landing rather than try to bale out. Unfortunately the navigator was likely to break both legs below the knee in such a situation when his legs smashed into the AI console. One died in his burning aircraft as a result (the pilot got out but was unable to free him).
By: PeterVerney
- 12th October 2010 at 18:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Unfortunately the navigator was likely to break both legs below the knee in such a situation when his legs smashed into the AI console. One died in his burning aircraft as a result (the pilot got out but was unable to free him).
Peter
I guess you refer to the incident at Stradishall. I considered myself lucky to be flying in the Meteor NFs. We were at Stradishall when this incident occurred.
The NF Venom had a bad reputation for accidents, the Coltishall sqdn lost two COs in them, one being a well known WWII NF ace, in addition to several other accidents.
Elsewhere I have unkindly referred to the Vampire NF 10 as a real lash up. DeHavilland were keen to get in on the act to replace the Mosquito. Some bright spark remembered that the fuselage construction of both aircraft was the same. He sent out the apprentices to round up all the model aircraft cement they could find. Then dragged a redundant Mossie 36 out of Leavesden, sawed off the nose immediately aft of the cockpit, did the same to a Vampire day fighter, and glued the resultant hybrid together! :eek: :D:D
That said I remember when we gave up the Mosquito for the Meteor we very much missed the side by side seating arrangement
By: Monsun
- 13th October 2010 at 09:13Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PeterVerney
Yes that was WX907 of 89 Sqn at Stradishall on 24 October 1956. The pilot was F/O D.W. Walters who got out despite a broken back and first degree burns to an arm and leg. The navigator who died was F/O J.M. Larkin. During another fatal accident two months before the navigator had also had his legs broken just below the knee.
Peter
P.S. Were you ever on Javelins?, if you were I need to speak to you!
By: Bruce
- 13th October 2010 at 09:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its a common misconception that Mosquito parts were used in the construction of the early two seat Vampires, though understandable. In the Mosquito, the pilot and navigator sat on, or were supported by the wing, which went right through the cockpit. Transferring that arrangement to a Vampire, one would have a bloomin big hole!
They did copy the general arrangement, but all of the flight controls were nicked from the single seat Vampire. The AI Mk10 was lifted straight from the Mossie Night fighters.
By: Bruce
- 13th October 2010 at 15:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter,
Yes, I know - but you would be surprised the number of people who take that for gospel. I knew a guy who trashed the last reasonably complete NF10 trying to turn it into a Mosquito.
By: Jon H
- 13th October 2010 at 20:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter,
Yes, I know - but you would be surprised the number of people who take that for gospel. I knew a guy who trashed the last reasonably complete NF10 trying to turn it into a Mosquito.
Funnily enough it didnt work.
Bruce
What ultimately became of this NF10 then Bruce? I have a vague recollection I have read this somewhere before but thats it.....!
By: David Hickling
- 9th December 2010 at 10:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I guess you refer to the incident at Stradishall. I considered myself lucky to be flying in the Meteor NFs. We were at Stradishall when this incident occurred.
The NF Venom had a bad reputation for accidents, the Coltishall sqdn lost two COs in them, one being a well known WWII NF ace, in addition to several other accidents.
Peter, were you at Stradishall two months earlier, when WX844 overshot on 10 August? This is referred to by "Monsun" in his post. The navigator mentioned was my father, F/O Raymond Hickling. The pilot was J D Hammett.
Posts here suggest that the NF3 was far from ideal to fly. My family assumed that pilot error was to blame but there are discrepancies in the story, including the actual crash site.
I have not yet seen the Court of Inquiry report, as I have only just started researching.
By: alertken
- 9th December 2010 at 12:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That - few hours/early chop - was common for the kit funded in the shock of Korea. Something NOW was preferable to the languid newer types sometime. How fortunate we were that National Service crews never had to take Attacker/Sea Hawk/Gannet, NF Meteor...would you believe Lincoln - in build into 1951 - anywhere near the Sovs.
By: PeterVerney
- 9th December 2010 at 15:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David- Yes I was at Strad in August '56 and remember the incident. In fact the runway had to be closed for a while, and we were on Exercise Ciano at the time.
Strad is in High Suffolk which is renowned for heavy clay, a Venom had swung off the runway, and got bogged down and was not recovered due to pressure of the exercise. then one of our Meteor NF swung off on the other side with a similar result, but the flying programme continued. Then, during night flying, another Venom overshot and bogged down in the overshoot, so flying had to be abandoned for the night.
I remember flying over the next day and seeing the aircraft scattered over the airfield like a warzone. Very funny.
By: David Hickling
- 9th December 2010 at 17:12Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Peter.
Was the night Venom that "got bogged down" the one in which my father was killed, or did two Venoms overshoot that night?
It must have been very wet for mid-August!
My fathers's place of death was given as Frogs Hall Wood, Stradishall - doesn't sound like a patch of boggy Suffolk clay. I can't believe there were woods at the end of the runway though.
By: David Hickling
- 9th December 2010 at 19:36Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PM?
If you mean a post-mortem report, no.
Just a death cert and what the family were told, i.e very little.
I think the RAF were rather busy at the time!
The court of Inquiry was attended (if not chaired) by Wing Commander Anthony Davis, who was flying back to base from the Inquiry when he made observations related to the alleged UFO incident of 13/14 August. What with the nuclear bomber incident at Lakenheath the month before and an exercise taking place, there was rather a lot going on at the time.
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 11th October 2010 at 17:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Venom NF had a few things going for it such as a better performance than the Meteor NF and side-by-side seating which was popular (if rather cramped) and power ailerons (NF.3).
On the downside it had a single engine which occasionaly flamed out without warning, especially the NF.3 (Dowty fuel system). With no ejection seats most attempted a belly landing rather than try to bale out. Unfortunately the navigator was likely to break both legs below the knee in such a situation when his legs smashed into the AI console. One died in his burning aircraft as a result (the pilot got out but was unable to free him).
Peter
Posts: 1,020
By: PeterVerney - 12th October 2010 at 18:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I guess you refer to the incident at Stradishall. I considered myself lucky to be flying in the Meteor NFs. We were at Stradishall when this incident occurred.
The NF Venom had a bad reputation for accidents, the Coltishall sqdn lost two COs in them, one being a well known WWII NF ace, in addition to several other accidents.
Elsewhere I have unkindly referred to the Vampire NF 10 as a real lash up. DeHavilland were keen to get in on the act to replace the Mosquito. Some bright spark remembered that the fuselage construction of both aircraft was the same. He sent out the apprentices to round up all the model aircraft cement they could find. Then dragged a redundant Mossie 36 out of Leavesden, sawed off the nose immediately aft of the cockpit, did the same to a Vampire day fighter, and glued the resultant hybrid together! :eek: :D:D
That said I remember when we gave up the Mosquito for the Meteor we very much missed the side by side seating arrangement
Posts: 267
By: lindoug - 12th October 2010 at 19:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter,
Thanks for your input. I've sent you an e mail.
Doug
Posts: 267
By: lindoug - 12th October 2010 at 19:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
DH Venom
Bruce,
I've sent you an e mail.
Doug.
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 13th October 2010 at 09:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PeterVerney
Yes that was WX907 of 89 Sqn at Stradishall on 24 October 1956. The pilot was F/O D.W. Walters who got out despite a broken back and first degree burns to an arm and leg. The navigator who died was F/O J.M. Larkin. During another fatal accident two months before the navigator had also had his legs broken just below the knee.
Peter
P.S. Were you ever on Javelins?, if you were I need to speak to you!
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 13th October 2010 at 09:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Doug
Have sent you a PM
Peter
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 13th October 2010 at 09:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its a common misconception that Mosquito parts were used in the construction of the early two seat Vampires, though understandable. In the Mosquito, the pilot and navigator sat on, or were supported by the wing, which went right through the cockpit. Transferring that arrangement to a Vampire, one would have a bloomin big hole!
They did copy the general arrangement, but all of the flight controls were nicked from the single seat Vampire. The AI Mk10 was lifted straight from the Mossie Night fighters.
Bruce
Posts: 1,020
By: PeterVerney - 13th October 2010 at 14:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Sorry Bruce, I had my tongue glued firmly in my cheek when I wrote that bit.
Incidentally in the Mossie I thought we perched on the bomb bay.
And for Monsun. I never got on to the Tin Triangle, although I was hopeful.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 13th October 2010 at 15:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter,
Yes, I know - but you would be surprised the number of people who take that for gospel. I knew a guy who trashed the last reasonably complete NF10 trying to turn it into a Mosquito.
Funnily enough it didnt work.
Bruce
Posts: 1,421
By: Jon H - 13th October 2010 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What ultimately became of this NF10 then Bruce? I have a vague recollection I have read this somewhere before but thats it.....!
Jon
Posts: 6
By: David Hickling - 9th December 2010 at 10:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Peter, were you at Stradishall two months earlier, when WX844 overshot on 10 August? This is referred to by "Monsun" in his post. The navigator mentioned was my father, F/O Raymond Hickling. The pilot was J D Hammett.
Posts here suggest that the NF3 was far from ideal to fly. My family assumed that pilot error was to blame but there are discrepancies in the story, including the actual crash site.
I have not yet seen the Court of Inquiry report, as I have only just started researching.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 9th December 2010 at 11:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The NF3 was ultimately under developed. The Sea Venom, which was essentially the same aeroplane became good. The NF3 never had that opportunity.
Bruce
Posts: 6
By: David Hickling - 9th December 2010 at 12:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I notice that at least 70 NF3s were sold as scrap on 15.4.1958 together with WX844. After less than 3 years' service.
Posts: 887
By: alertken - 9th December 2010 at 12:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That - few hours/early chop - was common for the kit funded in the shock of Korea. Something NOW was preferable to the languid newer types sometime. How fortunate we were that National Service crews never had to take Attacker/Sea Hawk/Gannet, NF Meteor...would you believe Lincoln - in build into 1951 - anywhere near the Sovs.
Posts: 1,020
By: PeterVerney - 9th December 2010 at 15:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David- Yes I was at Strad in August '56 and remember the incident. In fact the runway had to be closed for a while, and we were on Exercise Ciano at the time.
Strad is in High Suffolk which is renowned for heavy clay, a Venom had swung off the runway, and got bogged down and was not recovered due to pressure of the exercise. then one of our Meteor NF swung off on the other side with a similar result, but the flying programme continued. Then, during night flying, another Venom overshot and bogged down in the overshoot, so flying had to be abandoned for the night.
I remember flying over the next day and seeing the aircraft scattered over the airfield like a warzone. Very funny.
Posts: 6
By: David Hickling - 9th December 2010 at 17:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks Peter.
Was the night Venom that "got bogged down" the one in which my father was killed, or did two Venoms overshoot that night?
It must have been very wet for mid-August!
My fathers's place of death was given as Frogs Hall Wood, Stradishall - doesn't sound like a patch of boggy Suffolk clay. I can't believe there were woods at the end of the runway though.
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 9th December 2010 at 19:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David
You have a PM.
Peter
Posts: 6
By: David Hickling - 9th December 2010 at 19:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
PM?
If you mean a post-mortem report, no.
Just a death cert and what the family were told, i.e very little.
I think the RAF were rather busy at the time!
The court of Inquiry was attended (if not chaired) by Wing Commander Anthony Davis, who was flying back to base from the Inquiry when he made observations related to the alleged UFO incident of 13/14 August. What with the nuclear bomber incident at Lakenheath the month before and an exercise taking place, there was rather a lot going on at the time.
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 9th December 2010 at 19:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
David
Sorry, PM is for personal message. Click on your PM's at the top of the screen.
Peter
Posts: 286
By: Monsun - 9th December 2010 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Or even private message! Apologies, I get confused as to which forum I am on at times.
Peter