By: j_jza80
- 23rd September 2014 at 22:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Anyway, it does seem to show that much of an independent Scotland would still be ruled by a 'distant' capital government with policies that did not necessarily suit the more remote regions.
Exactly.
It shows me that Glasgow should break off and form its own little country, I'm sure the Yes voters who so adamantly believe in the right to self determination would have no problem with that...
By: Creaking Door
- 23rd September 2014 at 23:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The same could be said about the United Kingdom though; the regions out of step with London and feeling that a physical distance leaves them marginalised when it comes to policy.
The parallels with rural versus urban (affluent versus deprived) areas are also striking when considering the United Kingdom as a whole.
By: charliehunt
- 24th September 2014 at 06:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But are the "feelings" and the perception actually bourne out by the reality? Why, when offered a degree of regional autonomy, did the regions so comprehensively reject it?
As for the suggestion above, Glasgow and Dundee would have to merge forming the new Scottish autonomous state of Glasdee!;)
By: bazv
- 24th September 2014 at 07:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The simple answer is that over 50% of the voters wanted to stay in the UK...why does it have to be more complicated than that - if you talk to the Scots many will simply say that they are less unhappy with the idea of staying in the UK than they are to take the huge financial gamble on going 'solo'.
The trouble with 'democracy' is that sometimes one is voting for the lesser evil rather than voting for what you truly believe in !
The reality is that voting 'yes' would have merely swapped being ruled by a bunch of UK politicians that you do not trust to being ruled by a bunch of Scottish politicians that you do not trust AND paying more tax/gambling with future pensions etc !
The difference with this referendum is that by and large people were voting on the subject rather than with normal elections where large numbers of voters probably vote for personalities (albeit in much smaller turnouts) !
By: Meddle
- 24th September 2014 at 09:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But are the "feelings" and the perception actually bourne out by the reality? Why, when offered a degree of regional autonomy, did the regions so comprehensively reject it?
As for the suggestion above, Glasgow and Dundee would have to merge forming the new Scottish autonomous state of Glasdee!;)
Glasdee works for me. We would rid Scotland of most of the sectarianism, most of the violence and all of the Dundonians in one fell swoop. Just make sure the perimeter walls are nice and tall, and relatively sound proof so I don't need to keep hearing "aye, but people in Edinburgh are so unfriendly, ken?" or "try walking a mile in my shoes pal, I graduated from the university of life..." or even the hallowed "haw mate, I need 37 p to visit ma maw in hospital ken?".
Bliss.
As for our rulers being too far away to seriously care for our needs, I don't agree. The internet is the great leveller here, as well as cheap internal flights and a tolerable railway system. I think the bigger issue is that Scotland plays very well at the 'we have it harder than anybody else' mentality, and works a lot better as the plucky underdog than as a fully fledged country.
By: charliehunt
- 24th September 2014 at 10:09Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As a Scot, Meddle, you could not have summed up the situation better. On both points!!
I wholly agree with your last point - the whole fantasy of the disconnect between the centre and the regions was dreamt up by the media and plays nicely on any quite unrelated festering discontent. And as I said earlier if the regions were so fed up with London why did they reject the proposals for autonomy so comprehensively?
Oh and the percentage of the Welsh wanting independence has dropped from 5% to 3%!! With 49% wanting more devolution and 12% wanting to scrap their assembly altogether.
By: bazv
- 24th September 2014 at 18:34Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You cannot compare referenda on a single issue with broad based elections to a council or a parliament in any case.
I absolutely agree Charlie - I was just saying that by and large - the scots were voting primarily about the big issue rather than the individual politicians personalities !
Although the various 'personalities' are obviously always a factor in any voting !
By: charliehunt
- 24th September 2014 at 19:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutrly, Baz - however, whatever else he was, you cannot diminish the effect of Salmond's personality on the voters. Without him I reckon you could have knocked a few percentage points off that total.
By: bazv
- 24th September 2014 at 20:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure it would have happened at all without Salmond - I think the English politicians seriously underestimated his tenacity,I must admit I have always disliked the guy - he always reminds me of some of our old TU leaders !!
Then again - I do not trust many politicians from any background LOL
Posts: 1,542
By: j_jza80 - 23rd September 2014 at 22:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Exactly.
It shows me that Glasgow should break off and form its own little country, I'm sure the Yes voters who so adamantly believe in the right to self determination would have no problem with that...
Posts: 9,739
By: Creaking Door - 23rd September 2014 at 23:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The same could be said about the United Kingdom though; the regions out of step with London and feeling that a physical distance leaves them marginalised when it comes to policy.
The parallels with rural versus urban (affluent versus deprived) areas are also striking when considering the United Kingdom as a whole.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 24th September 2014 at 06:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But are the "feelings" and the perception actually bourne out by the reality? Why, when offered a degree of regional autonomy, did the regions so comprehensively reject it?
As for the suggestion above, Glasgow and Dundee would have to merge forming the new Scottish autonomous state of Glasdee!;)
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 24th September 2014 at 07:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The simple answer is that over 50% of the voters wanted to stay in the UK...why does it have to be more complicated than that - if you talk to the Scots many will simply say that they are less unhappy with the idea of staying in the UK than they are to take the huge financial gamble on going 'solo'.
The trouble with 'democracy' is that sometimes one is voting for the lesser evil rather than voting for what you truly believe in !
The reality is that voting 'yes' would have merely swapped being ruled by a bunch of UK politicians that you do not trust to being ruled by a bunch of Scottish politicians that you do not trust AND paying more tax/gambling with future pensions etc !
The difference with this referendum is that by and large people were voting on the subject rather than with normal elections where large numbers of voters probably vote for personalities (albeit in much smaller turnouts) !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 24th September 2014 at 08:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You cannot compare referenda on a single issue with broad based elections to a council or a parliament in any case.
Posts: 1,613
By: Meddle - 24th September 2014 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glasdee works for me. We would rid Scotland of most of the sectarianism, most of the violence and all of the Dundonians in one fell swoop. Just make sure the perimeter walls are nice and tall, and relatively sound proof so I don't need to keep hearing "aye, but people in Edinburgh are so unfriendly, ken?" or "try walking a mile in my shoes pal, I graduated from the university of life..." or even the hallowed "haw mate, I need 37 p to visit ma maw in hospital ken?".
Bliss.
As for our rulers being too far away to seriously care for our needs, I don't agree. The internet is the great leveller here, as well as cheap internal flights and a tolerable railway system. I think the bigger issue is that Scotland plays very well at the 'we have it harder than anybody else' mentality, and works a lot better as the plucky underdog than as a fully fledged country.
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 24th September 2014 at 10:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As a Scot, Meddle, you could not have summed up the situation better. On both points!!
I wholly agree with your last point - the whole fantasy of the disconnect between the centre and the regions was dreamt up by the media and plays nicely on any quite unrelated festering discontent. And as I said earlier if the regions were so fed up with London why did they reject the proposals for autonomy so comprehensively?
Oh and the percentage of the Welsh wanting independence has dropped from 5% to 3%!! With 49% wanting more devolution and 12% wanting to scrap their assembly altogether.
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 24th September 2014 at 18:34 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I absolutely agree Charlie - I was just saying that by and large - the scots were voting primarily about the big issue rather than the individual politicians personalities !
Although the various 'personalities' are obviously always a factor in any voting !
Posts: 11,141
By: charliehunt - 24th September 2014 at 19:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Absolutrly, Baz - however, whatever else he was, you cannot diminish the effect of Salmond's personality on the voters. Without him I reckon you could have knocked a few percentage points off that total.
Posts: 6,044
By: bazv - 24th September 2014 at 20:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure it would have happened at all without Salmond - I think the English politicians seriously underestimated his tenacity,I must admit I have always disliked the guy - he always reminds me of some of our old TU leaders !!
Then again - I do not trust many politicians from any background LOL