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By: - 8th December 2013 at 16:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There was a thread on the same programme a few years ago,i am on a slow connection so not going to search for it.
But I think they were much more than a whisker away from getting this aircraft into squadron service,tail less jets were just waiting for autostabilisation/flight computers to come along and also the Jet engines were cr@p and waiting for design maturity/stronger alloys (6 - 7 years hence)!
rgds baz
By: - 8th December 2013 at 17:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That was my understanding too - I read some interesting conversations with Dr Horten a while ago.
By: - 8th December 2013 at 17:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for the link,,i had seen it before but was just as enjoyable a second time around.
By: - 8th December 2013 at 18:13 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It wasn't just the land offensive though. Without raw materials and manufacturing capacity disrupted by sea and air the development and manufacture of even improved conventional weapons became difficult.
Wonder weapons are all very well, and the Hortens are certainly impressive, but you have to develop them, manufacture them (to acceptable tolerances), fuel them, crew them, train the crews.... The Allies had advanced technology too, they were however in a position where it wasn't about the only card they had left to play.
With the conventional fighters how much impact would reducing their output in favour of new developments have had on the retreat in the East and against the daylight bombing in the West? The 'what ifs' are fascinating, but could Germany really have held out, especially in the East, until 1946 in time for any of these projects to have any chance of reaching fruition?
By: - 8th December 2013 at 18:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
short answer? No, and even if they could good luck against the P80s, Meteor IVs, Canberras, nukes etc
By: - 8th December 2013 at 20:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
could Germany really have held out, especially in the East, until 1946 in time for any of these projects to have any chance of reaching fruition?
Most of these 'wonder weapons' would not have been feasible in 1946,just the engines would have taken another 6 - 7 years to develop into reliable power units - and even then only if they could let the design mature and get hold of some exotic alloys ! trouble is they did not have many friends round the world to help them !!
I know most people bang on about the wonderful german axial flow engines but they really were a poor design,it was not just the lack of exotic alloys,even with access to these metals we struggled with axials until the late 40's and (for example) the Metrovick jet engine was pretty good - but blade technology/manufacturing processes took a few years to mature even with no restraints on design/manufacture etc.
By: - 8th December 2013 at 22:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure if I can post a direct link but this is the title of one of the older threads on the 229,with links to 2 more !
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?104289-Ho229-Hitler-s-Stealth-Fighter-(merged)
rgds baz
By: - 8th December 2013 at 22:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My opinion is that these wonder weapons really didn't stand a chance - not with 3 million pissed of Russians on the Eastern Front and the almost ready A bomb in the west. Not to mention little things like the round the clock bombing offensive and the British and Americans poised to cross the Rhine. In any case the Horten was not a stealth fighter in any sense of the word - just another in the long succession Knapkinwaffe ideas albeit one that finally made it to the prototype stage, and even then using non-strategic materials such was the parlous state of German strategic resources.
The thing that troubles me is that we seem to forget that the Allies had a series of advanced designs on paper - some of which would see production in the post-war years and others that were quickly rendered obsolete by the rapid advances as the Cold War developed. Also the Allies were gearing their production to designs that had proven performance and strategic value that could be mass produced without the constant disruption of the process either by Nazi mismanagement or the Allied offensive which marred the German effort.
The German axial flow engines were a step too far at the time given the lack of suitable allows for the blades while our sensible approach of first using engines of the centrifugal type allowed us to get reliable jets into production when needed. The rocket propelled designs like the Me-163 were in the end a pipe dream being a menace more to their crews than the enemy, while the Luftwaffe had so denuded its offensive capabilities by sacrificing those to production of defensive fighters they had little with which to prosecute any strategic operations they may have considered. In any case the losses of trained pilots flying endless and futile assaults against the advancing Russian troops pretty much killed off any pilots that were left with the skills to properly use this "new" technology.
By: - 9th December 2013 at 17:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But the allies came up with such advanced aircraft after stealing German research secrets!
One thing I noticed about the (excellent) video was that they expected the '229 to do 600mph at 50ft! Not sure about that!!
And why wasn't it mentioned in the magazines of the time??
By: - 9th December 2013 at 21:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
As I said previously...the trouble is that although the germans had some advanced designs,they did not have the powered control systems and reliable jet engines to make them really useable !
Tail less a/c were usually quite difficult to remain in control of...conventional jet a/c were waiting for irreversable powered controls to come along and it is always nice to have engines that do not tend to catch fire or blow up ; )
Tail less jet a/c merely had to wait another 30 or so years for flight computers/autostab etc to come along !
By: - 9th December 2013 at 22:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But the allies came up with such advanced aircraft after stealing German research secrets!
er.....P80, Meteor, Spider crab and Canberra? Really?
By: - 9th December 2013 at 23:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
But the allies came up with such advanced aircraft after stealing German research secrets!
One thing I noticed about the (excellent) video was that they expected the '229 to do 600mph at 50ft! Not sure about that!!
And why wasn't it mentioned in the magazines of the time??
What I find troubling is the way that certain authors are writing books/tv which contain a subtle blend of fact and fiction in order make sensational claims while maintaing a degree of credabilty. Of course it's the sensational claims which get them notice and make them money. Note the Horton's own official autobiographic writen with the aim purely to document their own incredable life experience is at odds with much of what is claimed in this video. They tell us that the loss of the only flying prototype was due to a deep design flaw ie when in landing config it was unable to maintain both altitude and directional control on one engine. This was the reason why the next prototype was never completed and flown by either the Germans or Amercains. Overal the Ho 9 was long way from being anything like that claimed.
By: - 9th December 2013 at 23:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I didn't know about the design flaw! Thanks! It did look well ahead of its time, though
By: - 10th December 2013 at 07:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Its a well known saying that on some twins - the remaining engine is going to take you to the scene of the crash !!
It was a problem for many powerful twins - not just that a/c !
ISTR that the pilot was not experienced on twins/multis.
By: - 10th December 2013 at 07:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I think the Canberra was a handful to land if loss of one engine occurred during takeoff or landing (single drop position slow flaps) to give an unstable assymetrical power condition under the safety speed for a single engine, causing a roll into the earth. Plenty written up about this weakness. some here:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Canberra/Canberra02.html
http://www.bywat.co.uk/gallb8.html - seventh image, and more if I care to search a bit more.
By: - 10th December 2013 at 07:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True enough, I did hear somewhere that more Canberra cres were killed practicing asymmetric handling than in actual asymmetric incidents
By: - 10th December 2013 at 16:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Meanwhile back at the "Secret Government Location" outside Washington DC
work on the real deal progresses!
By: - 11th December 2013 at 08:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Glad to see that it's progressing, the wings looked conspicuously 'lonely' the other week.
By: - 13th December 2013 at 08:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It is in remarkable condition considering there is a lot of wood in the structure. An impressive bit of engineering - especially given the age in which it was designed and built...
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By: merlin70 - 8th December 2013 at 14:40
Horten HO229, Hitler's Stealth Bomber. This is a Great documentary available on YouTube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaJzKjtjZnY
It's incredible to think the Nazi's were within a gnats whisker of building squadrons of stealth fighters. If production had been switched from 109's and 190's to HO229's the air war could have taken a very nasty turn. It puts into perspective the importance of the land offensive that commenced following the Normandy landings.
Viewing things retrospectively gives us the advantage of knowing the the prolonged Allied campaign against the Nazi war material production significantly hindered Germany's ability to keep the fight going, but had the timings been different by 6 months or so they might have had a force of Stealth Fighters and bombers and an air delivered nuclear weapon. Scary stuff.
Note the Mossie stored next to the original 229 at an American "Secret" warehouse.
Note to a Moderator. Please correct title to read Horten. Thanks.