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By: - 19th January 2008 at 08:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There were plans to disperse them in groups of four, but I dont believe that the order was ever given.
By: - 19th January 2008 at 08:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A few years back I met an ex Vulcan techie (at Falmouth docks of all places!), he siad he was dispersed to the ORP at St Mawgan during the Cuban missile crisis, but I don't know if he meant it was a coincidental detachment, or if it was standing by for the crisis.
By: - 19th January 2008 at 11:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A few years back I met an ex Vulcan techie (at Falmouth docks of all places!), he siad he was dispersed to the ORP at St Mawgan during the Cuban missile crisis, but I don't know if he meant it was a coincidental detachment, or if it was standing by for the crisis.
My understanding is that there were 10 main Class 1 bases. In addition there were a number of ORPs capable of taking up to four aircraft, St Mawgan being one of them. I believe that the V bombers started practising these dispersals in 1959. However, unlike the US, at the peak of the Cuban Crisis, MacMillan (the PM at the time) refused to give Bing Cross the order to disperse the whole V force.
By: - 19th January 2008 at 14:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A readiness alert of 15 minutes. without me digging my VULCANS,VICTORS & CUBA dvd out, does that mean that the crew were sat in caravans next to the Aircraft ready to go, I can never remember the alert details.........I personally find this subject fascinating and the thought of our whole NUCLEAR FORCE sat there ready to go, a quite formidable one:eek:
By: - 7th March 2008 at 16:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well my Dad was on Victors at this time, and I seem to remember that they went to QRA, and then took it a stage further.
I'm sure he told me that at the height of the conflict, when the US were gambling everything to get the Russians to back down, the UK agreed to fly a live weapons mission with Russian targets locked in.
So they actually took off, bound for Russia, and were turned back after the Russians backed down.
he always said that he believed the flight was a final straw that convinced the Russians that the West was serious.
Now I've never seen anything official to back that up - but then it would be classified!
And of course, the same tactic was then secretly used by SAC during the conflict in Vietnam.
And that's only just come to light 'officially'.
Anyone any other data on a possible V-Bomber live weapons mission? :eek:
By: - 8th March 2008 at 12:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wynn, Deterrent History. Ch.XXII, P.369: from 10/10/60 1 (later,2, 3 and from 4/62, 4) SACEUR Valiant were in Marham "QRA area, a wired compound, and the crews did a 48hr. standby duty." 4 RAFG Canberra B(I)8 also on QRA. Ch.XX, pp.334/5 and Ch.XXX,P.550: from 1/1/62 1 aircraft per Sqdn, MBF on 15 mins. QRA, "crews housed and fed in quarters close to their aircraft...alerted to higher states of readiness by a klaxon". From 21/7/62: 2 a/c p.Sqdn, equating to "54 Thor+14 aircraft at immediate (15 mins.) readiness".
P.337: Exercise Mickey Finn III, 13-15/11/63: "a total of 103 a/c were available...102 were combat-ready at their planned main base or dispersal within 24 hrs...we were only able to use 16 of our 29 dispersals but all 47 a/c planned to disperse did so within 17 hrs." P.551, MF, 9/5/62, "22 Vulcan 1/2 were generated." P.307, 2/62: "a building programme is now in hand for the construction of ORPs and supporting facilities at 36 airfields" (so, not there, 10/62).
So, A to starter Q, dispersal during Cuba: No.
By: - 8th March 2008 at 17:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I believe I read or heard once that MacMillan deliberately held off from dispersal as it would have sent the wrong message.
By: - 9th March 2008 at 00:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
. . . 4 RAFG Canberra B(I)8 also on QRA. Ch.XX, pp.334/5 and Ch.XXX,P.550: from 1/1/62 1 aircraft per Sqdn,. . .
Eight aircraft Ken, 6 B(I)8s and two B(I)6s on the four Strike Sqn clutch stations. Two each B(I)8s from 3 Sqn (Geilenkirchen), 14 Sqn (Wildenrath)and 16 Sqn (Laarbruch) and two B(I)6s from 213 Sqn (Bruggen) all loaded with one Proj E each. Each of the Strike Sqns fielded two aircraft on QRA at all times.
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By: - 9th March 2008 at 20:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
LesB: I relied on Wynn, P.335: "At the beginning of 1962 the readiness for Saceur-assigned squadrons was increased when, on 1 January, a revised Nuclear Strike Plan came into effect: it meant that 4 Valiants instead of 3 were held at 15 mins. readiness at Marham, and eight Canberras instead of 4 on the Sqdns. in RAFG. On 19th (Jan), SHAPE asked when the RAF would be able to fulfil this requirement. The response was that while the additional Valiant could be made available "without undue cost", the bill for doubling the Canberra B(I)6/8 QRA force was considered by the Air Staff to be "unacceptably high"....on 21 June (1962, Chiefs) discussed the increased QRA commitment for Saceur-assigned aircraft and agreed that it should be accepted but that the matter should be reviewed in a year's time." Presumably up to 8 by Cuba, 10/62.
By: - 9th March 2008 at 23:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ken : Wynn is a good source and, I guess, is right in his reporting of policy. I do know however that definitely Geilenkirchen (and at least Wildenrath) had double occupancy QRA double-fenced compounds by at least Aug/Sept 62. These were complete with hard-standings, taxiways, open-ended hangars, and accom for two crews and related two sets of ground crews. So the powers must have started building these facilities (or up-grading them) early in 62. Could that be where the cost angle came in?
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By: - 10th March 2008 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Resolved then: doubled up in the June-August 1962 timeframe. The cost bothering Chiefs may not have been concrete, but warmware: note, P.334: QRA "became the most prominent feature in the day-to-day existence of the V-force crew." Personnel establishment issues.
By: - 12th March 2008 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Live Loads
DrD: It's highly unlikely that RAF, solo, "caused USSR to back down" 10/62. By my reckoning RAF had 24 Vulcan 1, 16 Vulcan 2 and 32 Victor 1 SIOP-tasked with UK weapons in 10/62. 72 was then the average UK Reflex deployment, with very visible guards around each evidently live B-47E (and more in Morocco and Spain). If I were US Pres. wishing to rattle a sabre in Europe, I would do it with SAC, not with another Authority in the control loop.
On "live" generally, no bites here from those involved, no ref. in Wynn (or anything I have seen), or on the long Pprune Vulcan thread. There would be no training value in trundling around with armed weapons. UK PM Macmillan (WIA,WW1) was of the generation that saw mobilisation as a casus belli, indeed proximate cause of WW1: dispersal or flaunting of nukes would have been the equivalent of putting soldiers onto the railway network, August,1914.
By: - 12th March 2008 at 20:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Victors at Cottesmore were definitely 'tooled up' but whether dispersed I do not know.
Even the MR3 Shacks at St Mawgan had their nose guns fitted the only time in my 3+ years there that I saw that. Sonarbuoys, depthcharges etc were also fully installed in the 'sack'
That was for real, that there is no doubt.............
By: - 12th March 2008 at 23:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
John
It's understood that the Vs were loaded, what Ken is saying is that we didn't fly with a "live" weapons (unlike the US and the French). Tend to agree as well. If a live-loaded airframe did actually get into the air in those days (especially in RAFG) it meant the end was nigh. The next thing we would do would be to collect the famlies from MQ and head for Ostend in convoys of 3-tonners.
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Posts: 369
By: efiste2 - 19th January 2008 at 00:01
Can anyone confirm that Britains V BOMBER force were dispersed across the country as the Cuban Missile Crisis reached its peak. And any other information on the V FORCE at that time would be really interesting. From the book i have read, it mentions that they were on a readiness of 15 mins, but doesnt confirm that the aircraft were at there dispersal bases/runways dotted around the country,