Australian WWII planes

By: fw190uk - 27th June 2008 at 16:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Love the line up of Boomerangs.

By: mark_pilkington - 27th June 2008 at 16:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Thanks for those Mortmer

regards

Mark Pilkington

By: Mondariz - 27th June 2008 at 16:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Thanks. Old aircraft pictures are always appreciated.

By: ozplane - 27th June 2008 at 16:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Excellent stuff. Any ideas on where they were taken?

By: mark_pilkington - 27th June 2008 at 17:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

most likely Hollandia PNG then.

regards

Mark Pilkington

By: ozplane - 27th June 2008 at 17:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Thanks chaps.

By: Ian Quinn - 28th June 2008 at 17:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Thanks for posting these photos and on the Classic site...great shots!

I suspect the Venturas in the last photo are RNZAF ones..occasionally they accompanied the Marine PBJs on missions and there are some photos of them in formation with some PBJs during a raid on Rabaul.

Hard to pinpoint where the Australian aircraft are...the vegetation looks more like the 'scrubby' type found in Papua...Hollandia is a possibility, I was there 30 years ago and remember the vegetation as being more 'tropical'...

By: pogno - 28th June 2008 at 19:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The Mosquito is a MK VI, one of a batch sent from the UK and used by No1 Sqn RAAF, was HR335 before delivery, built as part of a batch by Standard motors between 16/6/43 and 17/12/44. Looks as if it had made a single engined landing with the left unit feathered.
No 1 Sqn were based on the Halmaheras (wherever that is) and Borneo.

Richard

By: mhuxt - 29th June 2008 at 00:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

The Mossie pic might also have been taken at, of all places, Clark Field in the Philippines.

A52-505 was one of two aircraft sent there at the end of March 1945 for comparative trials against allied and Japanese aircraft, though the trials may not have taken place.

The squadron were based at Kingaroy in Queensland before heading to Morotai and then to Labuan.

The ORB is actually available online at the Australian archives

www.naa.gov.au

By: CanberraA84-232 - 29th June 2008 at 07:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Its not exactly aircraft related but i do have a photograph that my grandfather gave me of the 1945 RAAF 77 squadron cricket team!

By: Mark12 - 29th June 2008 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Superb images. Sincere thanks for sharing them.

The Boomerangs, the P-40's and the Spitfires all seem to be parked in similar lines and with very similar backgrounds.

The aircraft look 'new' and do not seem to be carrying any unit markings. This would suggest that they were taken at an AD prior to issue to a unit.

If I am reading the serial of the Spitfire correctly as A58-645/MV473, this wasn't received from the UK until November 1944 at 1 Air Depot Laverton, going to 79 Squadron in May 1945.

Mark

By: Dave Homewood - 29th June 2008 at 12:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Great shots there Mortmer.

I suspect the Venturas in the last photo are RNZAF ones..occasionally they accompanied the Marine PBJs on missions and there are some photos of them in formation with some PBJs during a raid on Rabaul.

They are certainly RNZAF Venturas, and the word 'occasionally' should probably be substituted with the word 'frequently'. Often our Venturas and US Mitchells acted as a wing on bombing raids against Rabaul. On other occasions a couple of our PV-1's followed the US bombers to act as SAR for downed bomber cews. They also acted as navigation aircraft for US Avenger forces as they had trouble finding their way home too often. And on a few raids our Venturas went in with the Mitchells and heavy bombers to act purely as fighter escort believe it or not! They were jacks of all trades.

As VMB 433 was based at Green Island then possibly the Venturas are from one of our squadrons also based at Green Island.

Mark12 wrote:

The aircraft look 'new' and do not seem to be carrying any unit markings.

Did RAAF aircraft usually carry unit markings in the operational area? I'm not sure if they did or didn't. But I know that RNZAF aircraft didn't as the aircraft were maintained by Servicing Units and were only loaned to squadrons (which were bodies of men, not aircraft). This was so squadrons could rotate aircrew in and out of the forward area with around three months there, while SU's could keep their experienced ground staff there for much longer, and the aircraft remained on site when a squadron left rather than ferrying home while others came forward. So no unit markings were used. Also sometimes two squadrons used the same aircraft from one SU. Did the RAAF use that system or did they stick to the more traditional RAF style where ground and aircrews and aircraft all stayed together in one unit?

By the way that Mosquito features in a photo in the latest issue of Flightpath magazine too.

By: Ian Quinn - 30th June 2008 at 09:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

They also acted as navigation aircraft for US Avenger forces as they had trouble finding their way home too often

I'm not from the States but the impression that they had trouble finding their way home too often is one of the many myths about this theatre...the RNZAF having themselves lost many Corsairs on one mission when they got lost in bad weather.

I flew in this area for three years in the '70s and after experiencing the conditions they all flew in I have the greatest respect for them and it is slightly irritating to see the old ANZAC/British myths about them getting lost all the time...everyone got lost there at sometime, even later on :)

Back to the RAAF photos, the vegetation is very similar to Emirau but I doubt that they were taken there. A possibility is that they were taken at Morotai [large bypassed RAAF base in Indonesia] when the PBJs positioned through on their way to the PI...??

By: Dave Homewood - 30th June 2008 at 10:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I'm not from the States but the impression that they had trouble finding their way home too often is one of the many myths about this theatre...the RNZAF having themselves lost many Corsairs on one mission when they got lost in bad weather.

I flew in this area for three years in the '70s and after experiencing the conditions they all flew in I have the greatest respect for them and it is slightly irritating to see the old ANZAC/British myths about them getting lost all the time...everyone got lost there at sometime, even later on :)

It is not a myth, it's fact, The US forces asked the RNZAF to provide Venturas as navigation escort to their Avenger forces on raids because they had previously had several experiences of formations becoming confused and lost on the way back to base. It was a common occurrence of NZ's Venturas to escort formations of smaller aircraft (and their Hudsons) to aid with navigation, whether transits between islands or on raids.

And in the occurrence of the Green Island Corsairs that became lost in the storm, Venturas were also despatched to attempt to locate them on that occasion. As you say, due to the unique weather conditions in that region everyone was prone to getting lost at some point. It doesn't make my statement a myth. The likes of the RNZAF Venturas were better equipped for leading formations, and had more experienced and better trained crews in many cases, so were used as navigation leaders.

By: Ian Quinn - 30th June 2008 at 11:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Dave
What I'm saying is that the Americans didn't get lost all the time.
All forces did including the Japanese...every clear beach on the east coast of New Ireland has a radial engine on it from when some Zeros coming down to Rabaul from Truk got lost and had to force land...

Even the RNZAF P-40s and Corsairs had to be shepherded up from NZ with a Ventura or Hudson....

I'd be interested to see when RNZAF Venturas escorted [US Forces] Avengers in PNG.

By: Dave Homewood - 30th June 2008 at 12:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

I never said the Americans got lost all the time. I said that US Commanders felt that due to several incidents where their forces had become lost (remember they were usually flying home in darkness!) that they asked for navigational escorts. Simple as that.

I have been told this by people who were involved, as I am writing a book on the RNZAF General Reconnaissance and Bomber Reconnaissance squadrons. I will try to find written eveidence of dates when Avengers were escorted.

By PNG I assume you mean New Britain?

By: Dave Homewood - 30th June 2008 at 13:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Here are a sample of some missions that Venturas from No. 1 (Bomber Reconnaissance) Squadron, RNZAF, carried out in support of US TBF Avengers and SBD Dauntless:

5th of January 1944
Two patrols between Torokina and Cape St George carried out (Flt Lt King and Flt Lt Mounsey and their crews) - with main purpose to report positions of any TBF or SBD pilots shot down during strike on Rabaul shipping, results negative.

9th of January 1944
Four Ventura patrols mounted to search for any downed pilots of TBF raid between Torokina and Cape St George. The first patrol took off from Piva and was completed with negative results. The second patrol was mounted by Ian Salmond and his crew, and he took over from and relieved four Allied fighters that had been escorting a TBF that had lagged behind the main bunch. Flt Lt Frank Bethwaite and his crew were alerted to a downed aircraft, searched and found him 30 miles from Torokina. He guided a Torokina based rescue launch to the downed pilot. Other piltos involved with this mission were Don Ayson and Vic Trayes.

10th of January 1944
Flt Lt "Steve" Stevenson and P/O Robin Alford flew patrols in support of any downed pilots from a raid by B-24's and B-25's on Rabaul. negative

11th of January 1944
Six patrols mounted to report positions of any pilots or crews forced down during B-24 and B-25 raid on Rabaul. During his patrol P/O Caisley and his crew's Ventura were fired on by four F-4U Corsairs off Cape St George.:rolleyes: "Imediately on return of third patrol, Strike Command alerted Fighter Command that patrols should be briefed to let them know that PV-1's were operating in that area, and for their benefit" other pilots on this patrol were Flt Lt Bob McSkimming, Flt Lt Frank Bethwaite and Flt Lt Paterson. Caisley's and one other crew mounted two patrols each. Results negative.

12th of January 1944
The same mission by the same crews as on the 11th were carried out in support of a B-24 and B-25 raid on Rabaul.

13th of January 1944
Three two-aircraft dawn to 14:00 hour continuous patrols were scheduled between Torokina and New Britain in support of a Rabual raid by B-24 bombers, TBF torpedo and SBD and TBF bombers with main purpose to report downed pilots. However a lone Japanese bomber dropped twelve 100lb bombs during the night of the 12/13th while the six aircraft were being prepared for the dawn op. Five of the six were hit. Two were unserviceable and the other three had to be patched before dawn. It was decided the patrols could be mounted with just four aircraft rather than six and cover the same area. Repairs to the runway delayed the planned dawn take off by an hour. P/O Caisley was forced to land at Torokina with engine trouble and after his patrol he and his crew stayed the night at Piva. The TBF's and SBD's did not make their attack in the end due to a failure to rendezvous. Flt Lt Bob McSkimming, F/Sgt Dudley Holmes and Flt Lt Register and their crews flew the other three aircraft. All searches negative.

14th of January 1944
Repeat mission as planned for 13th. More aircraft troubles (engine and tyre problems) meant only three Venturas (Register, Holmes and Flt Lt Patterson)
completed their searches, negative. The SBD's and TBF's struck Rabau between 12:00 and 14:00hrs

16th of January 1944
Four aircraft made 3 x two-aircraft patrols to report position of any downed aircraft from a B-24, SBD and TBF raid. The SBD and TBF raids were not completed due to lack of fighter cover. The first patrol was negative. The second patrol spotted parachutes hanging from trees at Cape Bun Bun. The third patrol was to be made by the first two aircraft taking off again but one developed generator troubles. So Flt Lt Davis took off on the patrol alone. His crew reported a possible enemy radar station 3 miles north of Cape Palliser, New Britain. They then spotted a semi-submerged submarine and attacked with two 500lb bombs. One failed to explode after skipping over the hull in a beam attack. The second bomb was dropped in the swirl of the water as the submarine submerged but was still fully visible beneath the sea. It exploded but there was no sign of debris. The conning tower was well strafed by Davis's tail gunner. Other pilots on this mission were Dudley Holmes, Ken King, Tom Mounsey and their crews.

22nd of January 1944
One two-aircraft patrol made for reporting positions of pilots downed during strike by B-25, TBF and SBD aircraft on Rabaul. Ventura pilots were Vic Trayes and Don Ayson. A dinghy with one occupant was sighted and Ayson and crew stood by it till a Dumbo Catalina was able to safely pick him up.

.....The list of this type of co-operation goes on and on. There are many more like it as well as the crews of this squadron crrying out their own strikes and other patrols, air drop supplies etc. This just covers a few short weeks too. I realise that this is not the navigational escort on raids I mentioned. I am still looking for the evidence and will post it if/when I find it. I just thought these snippets of RNZAF Venturas operating in support of TBF Avengers might be of interest.

By: Dave Homewood - 30th June 2008 at 13:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

Here's another interesting little snippet of co-operation. An RNZAF PV-1 flown by F/O John Coom and crew left Munda on the 28th of January 1944 carrying some coast-watchers aboard to help them pinpoint a Japanese bivouac area at the Mulambull River, Northern Choiseul. They did so, and the next morning the same PV-1 crew lead a second Ventura flown by Ft Lt Ken King and a number of US P-39 Airacobras on a combined bombing and strafing raid. The coast-watchers were aboard for the strike and the target and several others that coast-watchers had pinpointed were destoryed satisfactorily.