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By: - 23rd June 2009 at 09:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If I remember correctly, at home I have some pictures in books of Hurricane pilots in France 1939/40 with a lanyard around the neck and the pistol in one of the huge tunic pockets. If a holster is hard to wear, the pocket would make sense to me as the pistol would be with the pilot if he bailed out - I'll check when I get home but IIRC "Cobber Caine" was pictured with a lanyard and I'm sure I've seen others.
If a pilot was going to to take to his parachute, looking in a map box or elsewhere for a pistol wouldn't be high on his priority list I think ?
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 09:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A lot shoved them down into their boots.
Edgar
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 09:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have acquired a Webley IV and was gonna get a holster and lanyard too.
Webley's were a tad on the bulky side, and the later .38 version (rather than the .455 of pre-war years and earlier) was 'relatively' rare as it had in theory been replaced by the smaller Enfield No2 from 1932 onwards as the standard service side arm.
Although one can never say never, and you would take what you could get hold off if neccessary, an Enfield would be more likely to be carried by a pilot than a big old Webley.
I would assume that a lot of the pilots in the BofF would have had a '37 Patt RAF 'blue blancoed' web belt, holster, lanyard and ammo pouch issued and likely worn when on the ground, especially after the Germans launched their attack into the low countries.
I'm not so sure they would have worn belt n holster in the cockpit, as having worn them often enough on the ground, i wouldn't want to try and wear one in a cockpit and risk the snagging on chute rigging and straps etc:eek: as it would be very awkward and liable to catch.
As was suggested I'd say more likely they'd stuff an Enfield down the side of a flying boot once in the cockpit.
They might have even been issued with the spurless hammer version of the Enfield No2 issued to armoured troops which was designed to prevent snagging of the exposed hammer spur when in the confines of tanks etc.....although that may be far too logical thinking from my point of view :)
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 10:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
A lot shoved them down into their boots.
As was suggested I'd say more likely they'd stuff an Enfield down the side of a flying boot once in the cockpit.
Surely a revolver shoved down a flying-boot would be useless in the case of a bale-out...
...most pilots seemed to lose their boots when their parachute opened even when there wasn’t a heavy revolver in there!
What was the point of carrying one anyway? I doubt there is a single case of shot-down aircrew ‘fighting’ their way back to their own lines. I suppose you could try to puncture the fuel tanks of your crashed aircraft but what good would 0.38 ball ammo be against self-sealing tanks?
I seem to remember reading that during the Battle-of-Britain Luftwaffe aircrew were prevented from carrying side-arms due to the number of them that deliberately shot themselves when they were down in the channel, presumably due to the effects of exposure and the slim chance of being recovered.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 10:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When I was looking for a .38 Webley, I did see on offer, one or two that were marked "RAF"; all said and done there's not much difference between a webley and an Enfield , as previously stated the "tankers" Enfield was spurless, but that made it double acting only,(and the heavy pull made it less accurate) both are much smaller than you would think, (almost like a toy) and would fit inside a tunic side pocket.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 10:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Surely a revolver shoved down a flying-boot would be useless in the case of a bale-out......most pilots seemed to lose their boots when their parachute opened even when there wasn’t a heavy revolver in there!
What was the point of carrying one anyway? I doubt there is a single case of shot-down aircrew ‘fighting’ their way back to their own lines. I suppose you could try to puncture the fuel tanks of your crashed aircraft but what good would 0.38 ball ammo be against self-sealing tanks?
I seem to remember reading that during the Battle-of-Britain Luftwaffe aircrew were prevented from carrying side-arms due to the number of them that deliberately shot themselves when they were down in the channel, presumably due to the effects of exposure and the slim chance of being recovered.
I agree, I would say hardly any or very, very few RAF pilots did so, but you can never say never.
I think it was more common for Luftwaffe pilots on the Eastern Front to carry a PP/K or similar, and many of those spent time evading capture and making their way back to the German lines, Heinz Bar famously doing so over a 3 day period with what turned out to be a broken back sustained after his bail out!
The USAAF and USN/USMC pilots were of course an exception to this, being eventually specifically equipped with the M3 shoulder holster for such purposes.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 10:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen photos of Venom pilot's in the Far East wearing the standard issue webbing belt, holster (with presumably .38 Enfield) and ammo pouch with their flying kit. If they did it then I don't suppose it's out of the question that WWII pilot's did too.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 11:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I have seen photos of Venom pilot's in the Far East wearing the standard issue webbing belt, holster (with presumably .38 Enfield) and ammo pouch with their flying kit. If they did it then I don't suppose it's out of the question that WWII pilot's did too.
Were they wearing the standard flap holster or the cut away tankers one?
Didn't the Venoms have bang seats though?
As such it might not be such an issue with vacating the aircraft as with trying to get out of a tumbling or whatever piston fighter and getting caught by something you had on. I know how awkward it is wearing a belt n holster just driving a WW2 Jeep or light armoured car let alone wearing one in the confines of a cramped cockpit:eek: That's why they devised the armoured tankers holster and long strap belt, although that presented another set of problems and wasn't well liked by armoured troops either, although the cut away holster was.
Again, I'd never say never.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seriously the first rule for a pilot who has bailed out in enemy territory where armed squads of soldiers or local militia would be after him was ditch the pistol, or if capture wasn't appealing, then use it to commit suicide.
Anyone who thinks that a pilot on his own with a standard issue service pistol could put up a credible fight against soldiers armed with rifles has little or no real experience of firearms.
The service issue .38 calibre Enfield used in WW2 was regarded with derision by serious users of pistols. The popular Mk6 Webley was probably the best service revolver ever made and used in both wars, but it was basically issued to officers and was more a weapon used to shoot laggards on your own side when going over the top in that hell that was WW1 trench warfare, or in leading troops attacking some objective, than actually shooting at the enemy all of whom were armed with rifles and automatic weapons with much greater range, accuracy and striking power than a revolver or self-loading pistol, whatever its calibre.
Pistols were issued to airman as a part of their survival kit, but as I said the reality was that a couple of common soldiers armed with rifles are more than a match for any pilot armed with a revolver. They can stay out of pistol range and quietly go about their business of potting whoever it is who is silly enough to shoot at them with a pistol - it's a matter of range and accuracy basically and the fact that over about 25 yards most people cannot hit anything with a pistol, especially if they are trying to evade capture, all the noise would only draw fatal attention. That is why so many of those who parachuted to safety wound up alive and well in POW camps. They may have been shot down but they were neither suicidal nor stupid, so they tossed the pistol - that's why so many wound up as war souvenirs.
I do speak from some actual knowledge of pistols and their potential - I own quite a lot of quite serviceable working ones. Sure they look glamorous in a wild western sort of way but glamor ain't much defence against serious firearms.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 11:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seriously the first rule for a pilot who has bailed out in enemy territory where armed squads of soldiers or local militia would be after him was ditch the pistol, or if capture wasn't appealing, then use it to commit suicide.I do speak from some actual knowledge of pistols and their potential - I own quite a lot of quite serviceable working ones. Sure they look glamorous in a wild western sort of way but glamor ain't much defence against serious firearms.
I recall in "Tornado down" when John Peters and John Nicoll met up after their ejection, they said the drew their pistols, laughed and dropped them and put up their hands, the bad guys had AK-47's..... so you make a very good point !
At the risk of thread drift, I read a book about the siege of Singapore and there were details there of army officers with (IIRC) .45 Webley revolvers with considerable range shooting across the causeway with some effect.
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 12:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Carrying .45 service revolvers was relatively common by single seat RAF fighter pilots of WW2 - despite the bulk of the weapon.Here is a Smith & Wesson carried by a Spitfire pilot lost in 1942.
Now you've opened up a new can of worms by posting that pic :D
That's a US issue S&W Model 17 in .45ACP and not a 'standard' British service revolver in the sense of the WW1 .455 Webley etc. or the more common WW2 .38 issue Enfield's.
Or it's one of the 70,000 S&W N framed revolvers chambered for the .455 Webley ammo bought by the UK from the US during WW1, and later converted to .45ACP.
As I said, never say never ;)
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 12:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The popular Mk6 Webley was probably the best service revolver ever made and used in both wars, but it was basically issued to officers and was more a weapon used to shoot laggards on your own side when going over the top in that hell that was WW1 trench warfare...
Trench-raiding or entering dugouts were probably the only time that a pistol was an advantage against someone armed with a rifle. I think British officers soon learned to wear helmets and carry a Lee-Enfield when going over-the-top as advancing carrying a revolver (or a swagger-stick :rolleyes:) would make you an obvious target for snipers, or anybody else for that matter!
It wasn’t only army officers who needed a revolver to ‘encourage’ their subordinates; I remember reading about a Lancaster Pilot (Walter Thompson?) who was forced to draw his revolver on his navigator over the Bay of Biscay when he refused to take a reading with his sextant!
The navigator was ‘reassigned’; to the relief of the rest of the crew (who all thought it was well overdue) but before that incident the Canadian pilot had been derided for carrying his ‘wild-west six-shooter’!
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 13:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here is another example of a tooled-up RAF fighter pilot during the Battle of Britain. I am pretty sure it is a Webley, but of interest is the lanyard arrangment mentioned previously.
Yes, does look to have a rounded butt and be a Webley rather than an Enfield.
Lanyard arrangement like that was common practice in Army usage, although more often seen in army field usuage seen hooped around the right shoulder under the fastened epaulet, then under the button down flap of the tunic/BD blouse.
I'm more interested in that dark triangle area on his right upper arm at the shoulder....??
I can't think what insignia is that or was that, that maybe has been blanked out by a censor...?
Love the exhaust on the AJS :D
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 13:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Firebird...The dark triangle is the corner of the black rectangle with the woven RAF eagle.
This is Sgt Pilot J H M Ellis of 85 Squadron, lost in early September 1940.
He was issued with a Webley service revolver on 9 June 1940. This photo was taken on 17 July 1940 in Cambridge.
Hope this helps re the mystery triangle!!
OK
I can't recall ever seeing an 'Albatross' patch looking so dark in contrast to the uniform in a b&w photo before, that's why I was a bit confused :)
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 13:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When we recovered the 300 Sqn (Polish) Lancaster we also found a Webley revolver. According to the only survivor it was common use for the Polish crewmembers to carry one in case of having to bail out and take the opportunity to take some of the hated Germans with them.
Don't know if such an opportunity has ever taken place.
Cheers
Cees
By: - 23rd June 2009 at 14:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Don't know if such an opportunity has ever taken place.
In the Schweinfurt-Regensburg book by Martin Middlebrook a B-17 pilot is mentioned as carrying a pistol and being determined to fight it out should he be forced to bale-out over Germany.
As it happened he was forced to bale-out on this mission and was killed on the ground in exactly those circumstances. German casualties are not mentioned.
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By: Rocketeer - 23rd June 2009 at 05:53
I have often read of pilots carrying personal weapons (particularly during BoF and over enemy territory)...so I thought (!) it would be nice to get a deac service revolver to enhance the Spit/Hurri cockpit displays....I have acquired a Webley IV and was gonna get a holster and lanyard too.
Question, I would think flying with it around the waist would be uncomfortable etc....does anyone have any factual/anecdotal evidence to say where it may be stowed? (i.e. map box, or strapped to port or starboard tube F-G on a Hurri - this is similar to where the control locks bag goes)
cheers!