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By: - 4th March 2002 at 12:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-03-02 AT 12:41 PM (GMT)]Dezz...thanks for posting this...my letters are ready...I hope we are not too late...when my parents visited Hawkinge last Autumn, the builders were already JUST 6 FEET from the perimeter fence...I simply cannot believe that this is happening...Hawkinge is one of the best (if not the best) memorials to the Battle of Britain...and it is being destroyed before our eyes...
The trouble is...the government no longer has men who fought in the Second World War...it's just something that happened sixty years ago to them...they don't care about preserving the memories of those who fought...they disgust me...
I'm 22 years old...and unlike a lot (but not all) people my age I have "real" heroes...not people like David Beckham and Posh, but the likes of Guy Gibson, Leonard Cheshire, Hugh Verity, Yvonne Cormeau, Barnes Wallis...I respect their contributions and their memories...shame the powers that be don't feel the same way...
Ashley, your disgruntled Duxford correspondent
By: - 4th March 2002 at 12:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 04-03-02 AT 12:58 PM (GMT)]many thanks for your support ashley.
By: - 5th March 2002 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Thanx Dezz & Ashley for this...my letters will be on their way tommorrow am ....
regards
Tony 'Blood Boiling' Dyer
By: - 10th March 2002 at 12:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
I was there last year, when there was a fair bit of it left, so i dont know how much building has happened from then, but i think every square foot of the airfield is worth fighting for! i see your home page is thunder and lightnings, exallent site buy the way, wouldn't you rather have a lightning tyre than no lightnings at all?
By: - 11th March 2002 at 21:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
PLEASE NOTE:- ALL THE VIEWS IN THE FOLLOWING POST ARE NOT MENT TO BE LIABILUS OR OFFENSIVE. THAY ARE PURELY THE VIEWS OF THE AUTHOR.
“I don't think they'd want every patch of ground that they flew from to be forever a shrine, with no other use. People have to live somewhere! I don't think they fought their battle to stop British people from having homes in the future.”
How many of these places are “for ever a shrine” apart from biggin hill, rochester, headcorn, lydd, manston and hawkinge, how many are left and not given over to houses and industry, ok they may not have all been involved in the battle of britain but they were all part of aviation in kent and are, to the best of my knowledge no longer here in anything like their original state, if there is anything left at all. I don’t want hawkinge to go the same way. Have a look at hawkinge on multimap.com the aerial photo, there is a stretch of land, 15 to 20 miles of it, to the north where they can build houses until their hart’s content, I agree that no one wants a stretch of muddy ground that doesn’t honor anyone, so make it a park don’t build houses on it.
1. Abbey Wood (Flying Ground)
2. Allhallows (RFC/ELG)
3.Ashford (ALG/RAF/USAAF)
4. Baldwyns Park (Flying Ground)
5. Bekesbourne (RFC/RAF Aerodrome)
6. Biggin Hill (RFC/RAF Aerodrome)
7. Brenzett (ALG/RAF)
8. Broadsalts (RFC/ELG)
9. Bromley (Flying Ground)
10. Broomfield (ELG/RFC/Civil)
11. Canterbury (Flying Ground)
12. Capelle Ferne (RNAS Airship Station)
13. Chatham (Balloon Station)
14. Crayford (Aircraft Factory)
15. Detling (RNAS/RAF Aerodrome )
16. Dover (RNAS Seaplane Station)
17. Dymchurch (RFC/RAF)
18. Eastchurch (Short Bros/RNAS/RAF)
19. Erith Marshes ( Aircraft Factory)
20. Eynsford (Flying Ground)
21. Farningham (ELG/RFC)
22. Frinstead (ELG/RFC)
23. Gillingham (Flying Ground)
24. Godmersham Park (Balloon Station)
25. Grain (RNAS/RFC)
26. Gravesend (Civil/RAF Aerodrome)
27. Grove Park (ELG/RFC)
28. Guilton (ELG/RFC)
29. Guston Rd (RFC)
30. Harty (ELG/RFC)
31. Hawkinge (RFC/RAF Aerodrome )
32. Headcorn/Lashenden (ALG/RCAF /USAAF /Civil)
33. High Halden (ALG/USAAF)
34. Horton Kirby (Civil)
35. Hunton (ELG/RFC)
36. Hythe (RFC)
37. Joyce Green (RFC)
38. Kings Hill (ELG/RFC)
39. Kingsnorth-Hoo (RNAS Airship Station)
40. Kingsnorth (ALG/RAF/USAAF)
41. Harrietsham (RFC/HQ)
42. Leigh Green (ELG/RFC)
43. Leysdown (Flying Ground)
44. Lidsing (Balloon Station)
45. Lydd (Balloon Station)
46. Lympne (RFC/RAF/Civil)
47. Manston (RFC/RAF/Civil)
48. Marden (ELG/RFC)
49. New Romney/Littlestone (RFC/Civil)
50. Newchurch (ALG/RAF)
51. Orpington (Flying Ground)
52. Penshurst (RFC/RAF Civil/ELG)
53. Port Victoria (RNAS)
54. Pluckley (ELG/RFC)
55. Plumstead Marshes (Flying Ground)
56. Ramsgate (Civil Aerodrome)
57. Rochester (Short Brothers/Civil)
58. Sheerness (ELG/RFC/Balloon Station)
59. Shellbeach (Flying Ground)
60. Staplehurst (ALG/RCAF/USAAF)
61. Sole Street/Petham (ELG/RFC)
62. South Ash (ELG/RFC)
63. Swalecliffe (Civil Flying Ground)
64. Swingfield (ELG/RFC/ ALG/RAF)
65. Swingate (RFC/RAF)
66. Thowley Wood (RFC)
67. Walmer (RFC)
68. Westgate (RNAS)
69. West Malling (ELG/RFC/RAF/ Civil)
70. Whitfield (Flying Ground)
71. Wittersham (Balloon Station)
72. Woodchurch(ALG/RAF /USAAF /Civil)
73. Wye (RFC/RAF)
“The history has NOT been forgotten. The new road into the estate is 'Spitfire Way'. Many of the new roads within the estate also have an aviation connection - Waddington Drive, Lysander Way, etc.”
Any where within 2Miles of a old fighter station there is a road called “sptifire way” it’s the developers way of saying “look we are interested in what happened here” when what I think they really mean is “we are making a few million quid and to keep the aviation people happy we will call a road after a aeroplane” I don’t think it means anything to them. How many roads are called “Hurricane way” or “Boulton Paul av”? not many I bet.
I think Hawkinge is important, as is all aviation heritage.
Am I the only one with these views, or am I just twisted……
:-)
By: - 12th March 2002 at 12:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-03-02 AT 12:42 PM (GMT)]A site such as Hawkinge will always provoke strong emotions...
I first visited Hawkinge in 1996 and one of my abiding memories of that visit is of looking through the perimeter fence at where the airfield once was and trying to picture myself back in 1940...watching Hurricanes scramble to meet the enemy...a most thought provoking moment...
This is what saddens me about recent developments at Hawkinge, for that view will be lost...I understand that it is not financially viable to preserve the whole of Hawkinge airfield, but if they could have just kept that view in front of the fence I would have been happy...
Dezz...I think most of us if not all of us here would agree that Hawkinge is important...to me, Hawkinge is a reminder of the men who flew from there in the darkest days of the war but I understand that you don't HAVE to preserve every bit of ground for it to be a memorial...at least at Hawkinge we have a wonderful museum to visit (personally it and Manston are my very favourites), with many important artefacts and exhibits on show in some of the original buildings...
Kent has a rapidly expanding population...and housing must be built to deal with this...sadly this means that land once occupied by airfields will sometimes be lost to these building programmes...but all is not lost...there is Hawkinge...the Spitfire and Hurricane Memorial at Manston...the Battle of Britain Memorial at Capel Le Ferne...the Medway Preservation Group at Rochester...and at West Malling there is a new memorial to the men who flew from there...I am sure someone here will be able to add to the list...
Just my two cents :)
Ashley, Spitfire Polisher and SR-71 Fluffer
By: - 12th March 2002 at 13:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
just to wiegh in as a local, they want to demolish and put houses all over the rochester airport (inculding MAPS)
rabie :9
By: - 12th March 2002 at 20:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 12-03-02 AT 08:18 PM (GMT)]Nice set of piccies, i especilly like the 3rd one down (as it looks like the place where some of the formation take off shots in the bob film were taken from).with regard to my last post, i dont want to have all the places as shrine's, i listed them to point out that kent has a lot of aviation history, but little of it remains today.
Ashley, thanks for your views, i to think the museum at hawkinge is one of the best.
Rabie, I to am a local, i come from Gillingham, and think what the council is trying to do is wrong, last i heard it was going to be a scince park or somthing if the application was successful, do you have any idea how they are getting on?
:-)
By: - 12th March 2002 at 20:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
oh - i'm in walderslade, right under the airport flight path. if you get one of our local rag (there are a few, but i get the medway news on fridays) there is amssive opposition but the council seamed set on it. merdian tv (our local ITV) had a recent bit saying some government inspector recomended keeping it open but his report is not binding.
the evil counicl seams set on it , though IMHO they have enough "brownn field" sites to use like both sides of the tunnel, the old dockyard, rochester riverside, the old all saints hospital, etc, etc.
apparently where toy are us and th other shops are (right on this pic) were orgianlly meant to be "a sicnece aprk" so you see what people mean by their little faith in the council.
rabie :9
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By: - 12th March 2002 at 23:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Again, I can see both sides of the argument. Would those who fought and died, either at Hawkinge or flying from it, want the airfield to remain as a monument to their tenacity and bravery? Or would they rather see the land used to provide homes for those whose freedom they fought for?
Ashley, I think you might like this next bit....
Joshua Lawrence Chamberlain was Colonel commanding the 20th Maine Volunteer Regiment at Gettysburg in the American Civil War, an action for which he was awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. Many years later, on a visit to Gettysburg, he made the following speech.
"In great deeds something abides. On great fields something stays. Forms change and pass; bodies disappear; but spirits linger, to consecrate ground for the vision-place of souls. And reverent men and women from afar, and generations that know us not and that we know not of, heart-drawn to see where and by whom great things were suffered and done for them, shall come to this deathless field, to ponder and dream; and lo! the shadow of a mighty presence shall wrap them in its bosom, and the power of the vision pass into their souls."
Whatever happens to Hawkinge, and the many other places like it, it will always be Hawkinge. As long as someone remembers....
Regards,
kev35
By: - 13th March 2002 at 09:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Just my 3.2 euros worth.
I can see both sides of the argument.
I live deep in 8th AF territory, where there's even less of the infrastructure left to honour their memory as so many of the stations were 'hostilities only' structures, wooden huts and nissens. (Not nissans! Pet hate of mine that)
Kent was the scene of one of the most pivotal air battles of all time and there should be some memorials. However a far better expenditure of effort, and I'm sure one of which the flyers and groundcrews of 1940 would more heartily approve, would be to fight Kent officialdom and its attacks on light aviation.
It is not just Rochester. The move is on to concentrate all 'business aviation' at a few majors (Biggin, Manston etc) and restrict to the point of financial non-viability the more fluttery end of the market.
Now a Cessna 150 pounding the circuit doesn't really get my juices flowing, but it is where people get started in aviation and take their first steps to 'slipping the surly bonds of earth'.
It's where some of the guys who keep old Tiger Moths in the skies above us learn too.
I personally feel keeping some flying fields open is more important than 'preserving' every last T2 and maycrete hut.
Ideally though - we should do both ;-)
Moggy
By: - 13th March 2002 at 18:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Just my two pennys worth.
I've never been to Hawkinge, is there much of significance surviving?
Always thought Tangmere was more representative of a BoB station and merits preservation, still retains it's buildings in good condition and has a museum. People go there and come away having learned, experienced something.
Just because an airfield is bulldozed doesnt mean that it shouldn't support some kind of memorial. Take Stapleford for example. The memorial and surrounding area reaks of Mustangs, it meant something to me and I don't remember the airfield.
I don't believe saving something for the sake of it.
By: - 13th March 2002 at 18:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Kev35, nice quote. Thanks for posting that up. :)
By: - 14th March 2002 at 19:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
RE: Hawkinge
Hawkinge is in my mind, worthy of saving at least some of the remaining parts. Sure some looks dilapidated but some of it could be absorbed into the excellent Kent Battle of Britain Museum (blast pen, hangar base, fuel depot).
Regarding there not being much worth saving, well it makes me laugh. If it was a Spitfire (or a Rembrant) that was being put in a furnace and only half was left a queue of people would say whoa! Stop doing that! Far fetched analogy maybe? But, I think that some of it should join the museum and the some of the rest should be made into a green playing area perhaps.
I found it horrendous how much the housing had encroached the museum. Some house buyer will throw open his/her curtains and see the museum 1 ft from his/her fence. If the developers have their way, the museum will be totally surrounded by houses. It makes me sad that we (collective) allowed the airfield to be built on.
The problem is that developers start little, say build 200 houses, then more go up and then even more. By this way they completely cover our historic airfields. Hawkinge was the closest airfield to France and the enemy. It was a Battle Ground and deserves to be listed as such as much as Naseby and all the greal Civil War battlefields. Call me an idiot or soft, I don't care!
Sure we cannot save everything, but it is the usual 'we needn't bother cos there are.....other airfields still around' (quotes a rapidly shrinking list.
What the Luftwaffe failed to do in 1940, the developers are doing now!
One chap said that airfields exude history....it is true....it is almost like they are tape recorders that playback to those 'tuned in'. When I was a student in the mid 80s I would go to Hornchurch and walk around the blast pens and former airfield. I could close my eyes and feel the aircraft and pilots around me. I went into the old officers or sgts mess, the big old fire place they used to warm their backs against was said to still smell of hot leather (from the Irvin jackets) on some nights. A lady working from a mobile home, selling houses on the airfield said how she 'saw things' that most do not believe in.....If there are ghosts they would be at airfields.
Just one last point, they have built housing estates all round the airfield at Boscombe Down (it seems ridiculous but true as we are an active airfield!) They then fill these houses with idiots who spend their whole life moaning about aviation that is committed over their fences. Some roads are named....'Nicolson Close' 'Barnes Wallis Close', 'Tempest Way' and 'Lightning Way' etc. unfortunately the majority of house occupants don't have a clue as to who/what these people/planes were. The latest estate is named Beamont after the great man himself. I wrote to him about 2 years before his deatha nd asked him what he thought. He said that he had rang them to complain and they said 'Oh, awfully sorry but we thought you were dead!'.
Anyway, thanx for the discussion....sorry my post rambled on but I feel strongly about this part of our history
Regards
Tony
Posts: 248
By: dezz - 4th March 2002 at 10:57
the council are trying to build on hawkinge again(page 10 this months flypast)Please all write to complain, here is a draft of my letter, feel free to add any thing to it, print it out 3 times and send it with your name and address, quoteing REF Y01/0261/SH, to Planning Inspectorate, Room3.17, Eagle wing, Temple quay house, Bristol, BS1 6PN. i know is a bit late but it has to get there buy March 8
Thanks
Sir
I feel I must write and Lodge my opposition to the proposal to build 345 new houses on the former RAF Hawkinge airfield. I like many others consider this airfield to be a site of a historic battle, I realise that it was not the only airfield used by the RAF in Kent, but it was the closest one to the “enemy” and as such I think that it should have some recognition as a memorial to the many airman who flew from it and never returned, or indeed the airman, who’s aircraft damaged in battle over the channel made for the airfield only to be killed on trying to land there. I conclude buy asking you to please refuse planning permission for this development, or any further development on the airfield in the future, after all Kent is a big place and I feel sure there are other places that can be built upon with out desecrating what I consider to be a site of historical importance.