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By: - 8th March 2010 at 10:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ok you had me there... I never knew the F-8 had a rocket pack.
Made me get out a few of my books.
I read one of my old books and it says the ventral rocket pack hinged downwards and that the air brake also deployed when it extended???
I can only assume that when the airbrake was extended , it was to help release the exhaust gases??
Now im interested to see any pics!
By: - 8th March 2010 at 10:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
'Page 9' of this link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4662079/Aircraft-Profile-090-Chance-Vought-F8AE-Crusader
By: - 8th March 2010 at 13:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was always interested in air-air rockets of the early jet era, just how effective were they? Were they ever actually used in anger?
I guess for slow moving bombers formations they would work well, but anything else.......:confused:
By: - 8th March 2010 at 14:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
'Page 9' of this link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4662079/Aircraft-Profile-090-Chance-Vought-F8AE-Crusader
The information in that page is wrong. On the F8U-2N aka F-8D the rockets were already deleted, and instead the fuel tank was enlarged, giving a couple of hundred more nm in range.
By: - 8th March 2010 at 14:54 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was always interested in air-air rockets of the early jet era, just how effective were they? Were they ever actually used in anger?I guess for slow moving bombers formations they would work well, but anything else.......:confused:
The F-89 Scorpion could carry 52 in each wing tank. One pilot wrote of salvoing the whole bunch at a target. One rocket went off course (and hit the target) and the other 103 missed. Don't know if they had proximity fuses. IIRC the Canuck carried a bunch of them too. Lots of aircraft did back then. F-86D, F-94, F-102, F-89.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 03:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
'Page 9' of this link:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/4662079/Aircraft-Profile-090-Chance-Vought-F8AE-Crusader
Thanks PeterG
Its not as in your face as I would have expected!
You have to love Vought engineers!!
Keep them coming gents!!!
Regards
Pioneer
By: - 9th March 2010 at 03:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I was always interested in air-air rockets of the early jet era, just how effective were they? Were they ever actually used in anger?I guess for slow moving bombers formations they would work well, but anything else.......:confused:
My friend I doubt that they would have been as effective as planned (and in my opinion the job could have possibly been done by the USAF/USN adopting a hard hitting cannon like the 30mm Aden in their fighters of the day! instead of the insistance of sticking to 12.7mm HMG's!)
But then again it was the USAAF's bombers that where on the receiving end of Luftwaffe Air-to-air rocket (R4M's) attacks. So I guess the USAF wanted and needed to get it out of their system (was not the 'Mighty Mouse' based on the German R4M?), and why wouldn't you!
It must have seemed a cheap and effective means of bringing down a bomber. But the U.S adopted a much more advanced launch arrangement than their German counter-parts!
I wonder what damage was done to a interceptor like the F-89 Scorpion after successive launches?
Thanks gents
Regards
Pioneer
By: - 9th March 2010 at 04:09 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Here are a couple pics. (Notice the tubes for the rockets in the bay doors on the F-102.)
By: - 9th March 2010 at 04:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
My friend I doubt that they would have been as effective as planned (and in my opinion the job could have possibly been done by the USAF/USN adopting a hard hitting cannon like the 30mm Aden in their fighters of the day! instead of the insistance of sticking to 12.7mm HMG's!)
Thanks gentsRegards
Pioneer
The USAF is guilty there, as they only shifted to cannon late, with one model of the F-86 Sabre (the F-86H), and then in new designs from that point on.
The USN had made the shift to 4x20mm cannon at the end of WW2.
The only jet fighters the USN ordered that had 12.7mm HMG's (.50 cal) were the FH Phantom and the FJ Fury (ordered in 1943/44 respectively)... and both saw limited service as introductory types... production examples totaled only 60 FHs and 30 FJs.
Their contemporary, the F6U-1 Pirate (also ordered 1944, 30 production versions built), had 20mm cannon... as did all further USN fighters, including the F8U Crusader.
Yes, a better cannon could have been used, as the Colt 20mm had some reliability problems in high-G maneuvers, but I have read that the 30mm Aden had its own glitches as well.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 06:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
During early Cold War years, some jet bombers were almost as fast as the subsonic interceptors (F-89, etc). Due to closing speeds, head-on attacks with guns were unlikely to occur and would be over very fast (not to mention chance of collisions).
Tail intercepts with guns were the result, bringing interceptors into defensive bomber fire.
Interceptors were fitted with radar and fire control to attack from either the side or rear. With 104 rockets, the F-89D could cover the area of a football pitch - AFAIK they could do this purely by radar (all weather intercepts). Later systems could attack from any target aspect.
"Each rocket has 3.42 kg warhead, max range is 4400 yards, although normally fired at 500 yards. Each rocket has same power as 75mm shell. (Encyclopedia of USAF Aircraft & Missile Systems – Post WWII Fighters, page 69)"
At the time, rockets made sense. However during one peacetime incident two interceptors salvoed all their rockets at a off course target drone. All ~200 rockets missed.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 06:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The USAF did test 8 F-86F-2 in combat March-July 1953. These had 4 T-160 20mm guns (Prototype M39). Due to engine surges caused by gas ingestion (the UK, USSR and others had serious problems fitting cannon to early aircraft), only two cannon were actually usable. During 41 MiG-15 engagements they claim 6 shot down, 3 probably and 13 damaged.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 06:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
F-8 Rocket Pack lowered
Here is the only photo I have ever found. I always wanted to see photos of the pack's rockets being fired.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 06:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Battle of Palmdale!
"...However during one peacetime incident two interceptors salvoed all their rockets at a off course target drone. All ~200 rockets missed..."
Battle of Palmdale http://articles.latimes.com/2005/sep/11/local/me-then11
Battle of Palmdale http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/08/28/chronicles-of-naval-aviation-the-battle-of-palmdale
By: - 9th March 2010 at 06:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Surely though the angled tray meant they were for firing against ground targets?
How on earth could you aim them at other aircraft?
By: - 9th March 2010 at 08:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Surely though the angled tray meant they were for firing against ground targets?How on earth could you aim them at other aircraft?
You're flying at an angle of attack up there.
The whole rocket thing was borne of the de-facto inability to hit a high flying jet-bomber with a fixed-mounted forward-firing gun in a fighter (better go for Schraege Musik in this case). The engagement envelope drops so dramatically that hitting becomes a pure game of chance. And the radar guided tail guns of the big bombers could be pretty deadly.
By: - 9th March 2010 at 14:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interceptors were fitted with radar and fire control to attack from either the side or rear. With 104 rockets, the F-89D could cover the area of a football pitch - AFAIK they could do this purely by radar (all weather intercepts). Later systems could attack from any target aspect.
Interceptors such as the F-86D, F-89, and F-94 had early attack radar systems that could do blind attacks in all conditions...but the system was anything but a guaranteed kill.
Because of the similar speeds and defensive weapons on the bombers, tail chases were not the solution. Instead, these fighters were vectored by ground radar into a position that was ahead and to the side of the target. Once the interceptor acquired and locked on to the target, its radar system ran the intercept.
A typical attack method computed by the intercept radar was to fly a lead collision path that would bring the interceptor into rocket range with the interceptor aiming in front of the bomber. The pilot (or weapon system operator) had cues displayed on the interceptor radar scope that commanded changes in heading and pitch.
Once these cues were "centered up", the pilot flew straight and waited for the fire signal. At that time, he would press and hold the weapon release button or trigger...the radar system then fired the rockets at the computed time.
As has already been said, this was at a relatively short range...1500 feet or so. The 2.75 rocket loses whatever accuracy it had to begin with at longer ranges. From the pilot's point of view, this 1500 feet is essentially point blank range given the attack crossing angle...his flight path and that of the target are pretty close. Once the computer fired the rockets, the system displayed a "breakaway" cue on the scope to tell the pilot to aggressively maneuver away from the target's flight path.
Since the 2.75 rocket is unguided, salvo firing them in this manner is much like shooting a shotgun at a clay pigeon. The idea was to fire a bunch of rockets in front of the target and hope that it and the rockets managed to come together.
The F-104 radar had a rocket intercept mode...I've flown it just for grins to see what it was like...usually using my wingman as a "target". Let me tell you...that 1500' is really, really close given our typical .9M speeds...that would have been sporty at night or in the weather.
By: - 10th March 2010 at 02:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
[QUOTE="Peter G]...However during one peacetime incident two interceptors salvoed all their rockets at a off course target drone. All ~200 rockets missed..."
Battle of Palmdale http://articles.latimes.com/2005/sep/11/local/me-then11
Battle of Palmdale http://steeljawscribe.com/2007/08/28/chronicles-of-naval-aviation-the-battle-of-palmdale[/QUOTE]
From Air & Space Magazine (published by the Smithsonian Museum) August/September 2005:
By: - 10th March 2010 at 03:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'll have to go look for pieces of that F6F drone when I have time. I've driven that road many times, but never stopped and looked.
Posts: 719
By: Pioneer - 8th March 2010 at 09:16
Hello gents
For years I have in vaine attempted to find pictures and drawing of the Vought F-8 Crusader's retractable 32 x 70mm (2.75in) 'Mighty Mouse' rocket tray arrangement.
If you have any picture of this weapon system in its deployed or loading arrangement I would be most greatful
Thanks in advance
Regards
Pioneer