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By: - 10th June 2010 at 13:32 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4663582&c=EUR&s=AIRAn interesting article, I'm wondering what this will mean for Mantis (UK) and Talarion (part French). I'm assuming one of those will be the base vehicle, but with no mention of other nations it seems unlikely it'd be Talarion. Or will a new air vehicle be designed and built?
It seems to be a bit of a unecessary duplication of effort I'd of thought - BAE seems to have a very good line of UAV demonstrators, and Mantis is surely a fairly mature jumping off point for a future production vehicle.
Wouldn't cooperation here eventually cause a consolidaiton of other unmanned programs, particularly Taranis, into a european fold?
By: - 10th June 2010 at 14:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
mantis is certainly more advanced than the equivalent EADS product if its true that its being tested in an operational theatre at the moment...
Its going to be interesting to see how far this cooperation goes, because its my impression that France and the UK are certainly the most stable major countries in Europe when it comes to defence expenditure....
or is that rubbish?
By: - 10th June 2010 at 14:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It seems to be a bit of a unecessary duplication of effort I'd of thought - BAE seems to have a very good line of UAV demonstrators, and Mantis is surely a fairly mature jumping off point for a future production vehicle.
Since the French are reported to be looking at something available too early for Talarion, & are under a lot of industry pressure to put their own sensors on it, perhaps this is a study on a production Mantis with customised sensor packages.
By: - 10th June 2010 at 14:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
What i'd noticed was that the discussions mainly seemed to involve BAE and Dassault, not EADs, so maybe this is going to be a contender to Talarion. As far as I know Dassault dont have a MALE UAV in development do they? So maybe it is meant to be a France and UK equivalent to Talarion, with the UK providing the air vehicle and France the mission systems, but I can't see how Dassault would fit in, Thales would be the better mission system provider.
Maybe all we can take away from this is that the French aren't pursuing Talarion cooperation?
By: - 10th June 2010 at 16:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I'm with Swerve on this, I've seen some reports (can't speak for their accuracy) that France are/were very interested in Mantis and it would make a great deal of sense for them to join a programme with an airframe that has already undergone a great deal of testing.
Maybe all we can take away from this is that the French aren't pursuing Talarion cooperation?
Since commitment from Spain and Germany seems a little on the lukewarm side I can hardly blame them.
By: - 10th June 2010 at 16:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i know i'm getting carried away, but i do get excited when i hear of the UK and France working together.
There is definite potential for greatness here i say...
By: - 10th June 2010 at 16:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
This "European MALE programme" would indeed be Mantis in one guise or another, or more unlikely an entirely new designed successor. The timescales for France and the UK and requirements for a new MALE UAV are roughly the same. We want to continue with it if we can, rather than buying American (the Avenger being one other possible option). The French want their own MALE UAV in the longer-term, but don't want to spend vast money de-risking the technology. It's as simple as that. If they and we can develop something cheaply fitted with interchangable French or British sensors depending on each individual requirement then that'll be what is developed. Italy is also interested.
Dassault is already offering the Heron TP as an alternative option pretty cheaply, but appear to be equally open to collaboration with the UK largely as the Heron TP option will mean less European involvement (ie. Israel will provide the platform and France [and Spain] just the sensors). As for Talarion, it's still on the table. But the French are worried about what it will eventually cost and when it will delivered, despite EADS's early estimations of how much it will cost to develop and procure. As Kev 99 said the Germans are supposedly lukewarm about it too.
By: - 10th June 2010 at 19:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
So maybe it is meant to be a France and UK equivalent to Talarion, with the UK providing the air vehicle and France the mission systems, but I can't see how Dassault would fit in, Thales would be the better mission system provider.
Dassault could do systems integration, customisation, marketing, & support for those it sells. It gets an ITAR-free platform which it could sell to markets where it's strong & BAe is relatively weak, including some which wouldn't like to be seen buying anything Israeli. BAe would get extra hardware sales, & could feed any useful Dassault modifications back into those it sells itself.
I can imagine a Dassault model with a mainly Thales sensor package, & a BAe model with mainly Selex sensors.
I wonder if there is any possibility (I'd welcome the input of those who understand aerodynamics better than I do) of a jet engined HALE version.
By: - 10th June 2010 at 19:57 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dassault could do systems integration, customisation, marketing, & support for those it sells. It gets an ITAR-free platform which it could sell to markets where it's strong & BAe is relatively weak, including some which wouldn't like to be seen buying anything Israeli. BAe would get extra hardware sales, & could feed any useful Dassault modifications back into those it sells itself.I can imagine a Dassault model with a mainly Thales sensor package, & a BAe model with mainly Selex sensors.
I wonder if there is any possibility (I'd welcome the input of those who understand aerodynamics better than I do) of a jet engined HALE version.
Wouldn't Global Hawk fall into that category? Or is Global Hawk still in the MALE category?
By: - 10th June 2010 at 21:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Dassault could do systems integration, customisation, marketing, & support for those it sells. It gets an ITAR-free platform which it could sell to markets where it's strong & BAe is relatively weak, including some which wouldn't like to be seen buying anything Israeli. BAe would get extra hardware sales, & could feed any useful Dassault modifications back into those it sells itself.I can imagine a Dassault model with a mainly Thales sensor package, & a BAe model with mainly Selex sensors.
I wonder if there is any possibility (I'd welcome the input of those who understand aerodynamics better than I do) of a jet engined HALE version.
That's exactly what I think has been initially proposed in terms of industrial co-operation. A report for the French National Assembly published last year detailed much of what might be done with Mantis on the French side. I also believe that BAES is considering jet engines as an alternative to turboprops.
Aviation Week detailed much of France's requirements taken from their report earlier this year:
Quentin Davies (obviously before a change of government) confirmed later in Parliament that preliminary talks had begun with France and Italy about the Mantis proposal.
By: - 11th June 2010 at 09:30 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Wouldn't Global Hawk fall into that category? Or is Global Hawk still in the MALE category?
No, it's HALE. But we don't have Global Hawk, the French don't have it, & there are other countries that don't have it, might not be able to afford it, or might have difficulty persuading the USA to sell it to them - but which might be markets for a European HALE.
That's exactly what I think has been initially proposed in terms of industrial co-operation. A report for the French National Assembly published last year detailed much of what might be done with Mantis on the French side. ...
Very interesting, Mick. Thanks for that.
Published on my birthday, I see - maybe that's why I missed it. ;)
By: - 11th June 2010 at 11:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
so this does all indicate that Mantis is a pretty solid prospect, and that its not just BAE who see it as having great promise.
By: - 11th June 2010 at 11:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That report was the principle one that I was on about.
By: - 11th June 2010 at 12:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's here if you can read French.
By: - 14th June 2010 at 17:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
EADS Offers To Pre-Finance Talarion UAVhttp://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_generic.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/asd/2010/06/14/12.xml&headline=EADS%20Offers%20To%20Pre-Finance%20Talarion%20UAVJun 14, 2010
By Robert Wall
To help build support for its Talarion medium-altitude long-endurance (MALE) UAV program during Europe’s difficult budget period, EADS is offering to pre-finance the development of the system if it gets a purchase commitment from its target customers that they will buy the surveillance and reconnaissance tool.
EADS has been designing Talarion with its own funds in order to expand its expertise in this area, and has tried to generate political backing for the project in Germany, France and Spain. But customers have been reluctant to sign on. While German government officials have indicated support for an initiative to build home-grown UAV capacity — a business dominated by Israeli and U.S. firms — France and Spain have been less enthusiastic. What’s more, rival concepts exist in those countries, and bidders there argue that the governments should focus on system and payload development, not the air vehicle.
Still, EADS hopes that Talarion will move forward. Bernhard Gerwert, the head of EADS Military Air Systems, says Turkey has been briefed and may join the undertaking, with Turkish companies also being brought on board.
Workshare also has been a point of discussion; Thales, for example, is unhappy with its role and the level of radar work. But Gerwert argues that as the design has been refined, the work allocation is now equally split, with a third available to companies in Germany, Spain and France. The allocation would be further adjusted if Turkey joins.
Still, governments have not accepted the system’s €1.4 billion ($1.7 billion) development bill. EADS had hoped to secure a program commitment by now to ramp up staffing to more than 400 engineers, from around 150, to achieve the 2017 in-service target date. Gerwert says development efforts will continue for now without financial backing, but at the lower staffing level — which effectively means the in-service date will start slipping.
Gerwert says EADS would boost resources if countries committed to the project. Although the company is willing to pre-finance development, it would still want to be paid for the effort eventually and not just attempt to recoup the development bill during the production run. The latter approach is seen as too financially risky.
The core program for four governments is expected to be for approximately 15 systems with three air vehicles each. EADS believes export opportunities could more than double the total.
How much longer EADS will be willing to support Talarion without a clear path to market is uncertain. Gerwert suggests the company is still upbeat but will not be able to pursue the project forever.
Credit: EADS
By: - 3rd July 2010 at 13:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting article here regarding Mantis and it's testing in woomera, also, Taranis to be rolled out on the 12th July:
By: - 3rd July 2010 at 15:48 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Interesting article here regarding Mantis and it's testing in woomera, also, Taranis to be rolled out on the 12th July:
Ah yes saw that article yesterday. Looking forward to the roll out.
By: - 6th July 2010 at 16:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
guess it wasn't taranis i heard the other night then ...:(
Exciting times, exciting times...
By: - 6th July 2010 at 18:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Next Monday . . .
The Scavenger requirement looks interesting. It'd be nice to see Mantis selected, rather than yet another foreign UAV.
By: - 6th July 2010 at 19:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Next Monday . . .The Scavenger requirement looks interesting. It'd be nice to see Mantis selected, rather than yet another foreign UAV.
Indeed. We are one of only a very small number of nations who seems to have a decent range of UAVs in development or ready for production and seems like a key growth area for the defence industry, it astounds me that we aren't supporting it properly yet. Lets hope the Tories get in gear.
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By: Grim901 - 10th June 2010 at 12:49
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4663582&c=EUR&s=AIR
An interesting article, I'm wondering what this will mean for Mantis (UK) and Talarion (part French). I'm assuming one of those will be the base vehicle, but with no mention of other nations it seems unlikely it'd be Talarion. Or will a new air vehicle be designed and built?