By: Freddy
- 16th November 2013 at 04:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well... When strategic bombers start to fly around (in a peaceful manner though but still there they are closeby... and all about the military is the art of the possible ;) ) it's largely time to take action.
Who said recently that there is no vacuum in military affairs ?! :rolleyes:
Those 5G types would sneak up on the strategic bombers more easily, meanwhile a cheep used stopgap fighter - Kfir perhaps?
By: Tryggve
- 17th November 2013 at 14:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Brazil could choose an under development fifth generation type just to put off spending money for as long as possible.
True.If the problem is money (and it certainly looks like that today) they could wait for a while and hope that the economy improves. But any 5th generation fighter will probably be even pricier than the candidates they have shortlisted today. So if budget is an issue in the future that could be a major problem for them. Especially if the Olympics ends up costing a lot more than they planned for.
But we have to wait and see.
New
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii
- 17th November 2013 at 14:16Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True.If the problem is money (and it certainly looks like that today) they could wait for a while and hope that the economy improves. But any 5th generation fighter will probably be even pricier than the candidates they have shortlisted today. So if budget is an issue in the future that could be a major problem for them. Especially if the Olympics ends up costing a lot more than they planned for.
I don't think the problem is lack of funds so much as public perception of government spending priorities, such that a major acquisition is politically untenable at this time. If only the Australian public were as attentive to such matters.
By: Tryggve
- 17th November 2013 at 18:20Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think the problem is lack of funds so much as public perception of government spending priorities, such that a major acquisition is politically untenable at this time. If only the Australian public were as attentive to such matters.
True. But the current Brazilian administrations don’t seem very eager to allocate the funds needed for this deal to proceed.
By: maurobaggio
- 17th November 2013 at 21:18Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Exactly. The Brazilian government seems to be very reluctant in spending billions on a new fighter aircraft at the moment. Given the criticism about the spending on preparations for the World Cup and the Summer Olympics, it seems likely that this deal will be postponed for years.
In 18 years three Presidents of the Brazil could not decide which fighter should be chosen for the Brazilian Air Force, though a single president decided to host the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016 while in office
The three presidents belong to two political parties, and both had supported the decision of the FIFA World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, despite all the cost involved and none transfer of technology or industrial compensation.
However all proposals with technology transfer and industrial compensation has been providing by the competitors( USA, France, Sweden,Russia) for 18 years for Brazilian Air Force has been discarded due to the lack of resources.
The Greece hosted the Olympics in 2004. How is going to Greece's the economy in recent years?
By: swerve
- 18th November 2013 at 10:07Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The comparison with Greece isn't appropriate. The scale is different.
Brazil's economy is about ten times as big as Greece's. The Olympics are therefore about ten times as affordable. Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece took delivery of the last of an order of 60 F-16s, having previously bought 80. It bought another 30 after the Olympics, making a total of 170 bought over 18 years. That's like Brazil buying 90 fighters every year for 18 years. Brazil is not planning to spend anywhere near as much, in proportion to its resources.
Brazil can easily afford 36 new fighters, whether or not it's hosting the Olympics.
By: Tryggve
- 18th November 2013 at 12:11Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes
In 18 years three Presidents of the Brazil could not decide which fighter should be chosen for the Brazilian Air Force, though a single president decided to host the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016 while in office
The three presidents belong to two political parties, and both had supported the decision of the FIFA World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, despite all the cost involved and none transfer of technology or industrial compensation.
However all proposals with technology transfer and industrial compensation has been providing by the competitors( USA, France, Sweden,Russia) for 18 years for Brazilian Air Force has been discarded due to the lack of resources.
The Greece hosted the Olympics in 2004. How is going to Greece's the economy in recent years?
True, my point was more that the cost for the Olympics and World cup probably will make the government even less willing to spend the money.
By: Freddy
- 18th November 2013 at 12:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It took three pages for you to echo the same point? Seriously this was a disappointed to read. I was hoping to see more news and not what essentially was pointless.
At least post pretty pictures.
Will a video of the SAAB 2020 RC model do instead.
By: MadRat
- 18th November 2013 at 14:26Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice video. It's a good looking airframe layout. Too bad it's F414 and not F1X0 base of design. I am surprised it has no levcon's and opts for the more complex canard layout.
By: TomcatViP
- 18th November 2013 at 14:55Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice video. It's a good looking airframe layout. Too bad it's F414 and not F1X0 base of design. I am surprised it has no levcon's and opts for the more complex canard layout.
Yes you're right. But it's a generic concept CFD tested 3 years ago. Hence even a little bit older IMO. So yes it lacks a lot that cld be hve been added given the state of the art today (I will add to your list LE running vortex among other things).
The pfd is worth a read if you've ever been interested in aerodynamics.
By: maurobaggio
- 19th November 2013 at 22:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The comparison with Greece isn't appropriate. The scale is different.
Brazil's economy is about ten times as big as Greece's. The Olympics are therefore about ten times as affordable. Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece took delivery of the last of an order of 60 F-16s, having previously bought 80. It bought another 30 after the Olympics, making a total of 170 bought over 18 years. That's like Brazil buying 90 fighters every year for 18 years. Brazil is not planning to spend anywhere near as much, in proportion to its resources.
Brazil can easily afford 36 new fighters, whether or not it's hosting the Olympics.
If it were so easy for Brazil to buy 36 fighters why three different Presidents has not taken this decision for 18 years?
Before to try answering this question if someone would like to do it, that should be important to recall that for 18 years three different Presidents of Brazil had claimed about economic difficulties for choosing a new fighter for the Brazilian Air Force.
Besides I do not know now the operational status of the Greece Air Force due to financial crisis that has been suffering since 2008, but the Brazil with a supposed 'ten times' larger economy than Greece, the Brazilian Air Force has counted in 2013 with 40% of its fleet out of service for lack resources for maintenance.
By: swerve
- 19th November 2013 at 22:56Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Because Brazil gives it low priority, & Greece gives it a high priority. Brazil spends a smaller proportion of its GDP on the military, & a smaller proportion of its military spending on weapons, equipment, & operations. It spends more on pay, pensions, forces housing etc.
The Greek air force has traditionally maintained a pretty high level of readiness. I don't know if the crisis has affected that, but the retirement of old aircraft has been accelerated.
The economy is not "supposed ten times larger'. It IS ten times larger, converted at exchange rates, which is what matters when one is considering the cost of imported weapons. It's about 8.5 times bigger at purchasing power parities, which is the relevant metric for internal spending. The population is 20 times larger.
By: HAWX ace
- 20th November 2013 at 05:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The comparison with Greece isn't appropriate. The scale is different.
Brazil's economy is about ten times as big as Greece's. The Olympics are therefore about ten times as affordable.
No, actually, it's the other way round. Brazil's economy is ten times as big as Greece's, so the profit/bribe margin for olympic infrastructure contractors is ten times as big.
Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece took delivery of the last of an order of 60 F-16s, having previously bought 80.
Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece had a near-war event, the Imia/Kardak islet crisis. I don't think Brazil had anything even close to that in the past ten years and, AFAIK, there isn't anyone interesting in creating such an event. So from one point of view, why should Brazil be in a hurry? It's not like their national sovereignty is threatened or something.
It bought another 30 after the Olympics, making a total of 170 bought over 18 years.
Yes, but that was the very last arms procurement since. Greece has not managed to buy anything beyond that until today.
Additionally, the man who made the deal, former defence minister Spiliopoulos, has now retired from politics to enjoy the longest private yacht in western Ionian Sea. Not with his pension money obviously.
By: HAWX ace
- 20th November 2013 at 05:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The Greek air force has traditionally maintained a pretty high level of readiness. I don't know if the crisis has affected that, but the retirement of old aircraft has been accelerated.
The crisis has affected many things but not readiness, for the time being anyway. Old aircraft are NOT being acceleratingly retired, but the other way round. A-7s for instance, were scheduled for complete retirement in 2008. But they're still with us. F-4Es were scheduled for retirement last year. Guess what. They too are still with us. Not to mention t-2s, M2KEGMs. They simply cannot be retired without some substitution.
The economy is not "supposed ten times larger'. It IS ten times larger, converted at exchange rates, which is what matters when one is considering the cost of imported weapons. It's about 8.5 times bigger at purchasing power parities, which is the relevant metric for internal spending. The population is 20 times larger.
Brazil's economy might be even larger than ten times; but this doesn't correspond to wealth of the people. Leaving some urban areas aside, the vast majority of Brazil's population is extremely poor. That majority has a right to vote too and couldn't care less for new uber-modern fighter plane acquisitions.
By: swerve
- 20th November 2013 at 12:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apart from the illogical "No, actually, it's the other way round. Brazil's economy is ten times as big as Greece's, so the profit/bribe margin for olympic infrastructure contractors is ten times as big. ", as an argument against the affordability of the Olympics (Think, man, think!), your arguments are supportive of my case. You argue that Brazil buys fewer fighters than Greece because it doesn't feel the need for them. That's what I said.
BTW, it isn't true that 'the vast majority of Brazil's population is extremely poor'. There are very many poor people, but not the vast majority. 94% of households own a fridge, 96% a TV, there are more mobile phones than people, a computer for every two people, & half the population is on the internet. There's a motor vehicle for every four people.
I suspect that your image of Brazil is of peasants scraping a living from the earth. 85% of Brazilians are urban.
NB. Statistics on ownership of consumer durables from 2009 to 2012. Current figures will be a little higher.
By: HAWX ace
- 20th November 2013 at 15:24Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apart from the illogical "No, actually, it's the other way round. Brazil's economy is ten times as big as Greece's, so the profit/bribe margin for olympic infrastructure contractors is ten times as big. ", as an argument against the affordability of the Olympics (Think, man, think!), your arguments are supportive of my case. You argue that Brazil buys fewer fighters than Greece because it doesn't feel the need for them. That's what I said.
Of course that's what you said; but you chose a rather void argument to support it. "Ten times more affordable Olympics", is not only irrelevant (then any country hosting Olympics should be a superpower) but also untrue.
BTW, it isn't true that 'the vast majority of Brazil's population is extremely poor'. There are very many poor people, but not the vast majority. 94% of households own a fridge, 96% a TV, there are more mobile phones than people, a computer for every two people, & half the population is on the internet. There's a motor vehicle for every four people.
I suspect that your image of Brazil is of peasants scraping a living from the earth. 85% of Brazilians are urban.
Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. I didn't assume anything; if I did, my image of Brazil would be like a country with an infinite Rio-style carnival party with semi-naked female dancers all over the place 24/7. My image of Brazil comes mostly from brazilian immigrants in Greece, we have a strong latino community.
NB. Statistics on ownership of consumer durables from 2009 to 2012. Current figures will be a little higher.
The problem with statistics is that they can serve many purposes, depending on which numbers you choose to highlight, and which to hide.
By: swerve
- 20th November 2013 at 15:42Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course that's what you said; but you chose a rather void argument to support it. "Ten times more affordable Olympics", is not only irrelevant (then any country hosting Olympics should be a superpower) but also untrue.
Where did that come from? Again, a lack of logic. I say it's easier for Brazil than Greece to afford the Olympics, because Brazil has a bigger economy. How do you derive "any country hosting Olympics should be a superpower" from that? You're not making sense.
I could have given more data on affordability, for example the size of government debt (Brazil has a much better debt/gdp ratio, & it's better than it was in 2006).
The argument is not irrelevant. It was in response to a claim that Brazil could not afford to host the Olympics because the cost of the Olympics had contributed to Greece's current economic mess. My argument is completely relevant to that.
Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. I didn't assume anything; if I did, my image of Brazil would be like a country with an infinite Rio-style carnival party with semi-naked female dancers all over the place 24/7. My image of Brazil comes mostly from brazilian immigrants in Greece, we have a strong latino community.
So where do you get the idea that Brazilians are mostly in desperate poverty? I've been there, travelled around, stayed in Brazilian homes . . . . & studied the statistics you disdain. I have a basis for what I say. Where's your basis? What information is your statement based on?
The problem with statistics is that they can serve many purposes, depending on which numbers you choose to highlight, and which to hide.
I've hidden none. Everything I've quoted is from public sources. Yes, statistics can be misused, but in this case, the difference between us is that I have tried to use statistics honestly, to inform debate, & you've completely ignored them in favour of uninformed prejudice.
By: maurobaggio
- 23rd November 2013 at 21:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Because Brazil gives it low priority, & Greece gives it a high priority. Brazil spends a smaller proportion of its GDP on the military, & a smaller proportion of its military spending on weapons, equipment, & operations. It spends more on pay, pensions, forces housing etc.
Indeed the current President of Brazil has been giving a high priority to the military sector, since the two largest projects budgets in 2013 from Government of Brazil are in the military sector such as:
KC 390: The Embraer program to replace the C 130 Hercules which is sponsored by the Government of Brazil who took all the financial risks of the same;
Scorpene submarines: The program of the Brazil Navy to build 05 Scorpene class submarines and the unlikely future nuclear submarine that could be built with French technology;
It has been speculated that the predecessor of the current President of Brazil had taken the difficult decision to buy the Rafale F2 for the Brazilian Air Force this program would be today in fulfillment.
The explanation for this is that the current president and his predecessor had failed to justify the purchase of Rafale F2 due to its high cost compared to other competitors, especially the F/A 18E/F Hornet, since all competitors (Gripen NG and F/A 18) offered the same package of technology transfer and industrial offsets.
The interesting preference for the Rafale F2 could be because the same it is French, as the Embraer has 30% of its shareholders owned by the Dassault that is the designer of the Rafale F2 that has given the priority from Embraer to get the resources to develop the KC 390, as well as Submarines Scorpene are French too.
Despite all the technological, commercial and political competence of the France, this preference by French companies has been surprising the other countries once the France has achieved civil and military contracts of great importance of the Brazilian Government, while other countries has been frozen or canceled their contracts, such as the purchase of the Boeing KC 767 for Brazilian Air Force from Israel who had won the competition, but that the President of Brazil has been canceled them because prefer the Airbus KC 330 despite this last one was overcome in the competition.
Perhaps by coincidence the KC 330 belong to Airbus of which France is one of its largest shareholders.
Posts: 248
By: Freddy - 16th November 2013 at 04:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Those 5G types would sneak up on the strategic bombers more easily, meanwhile a cheep used stopgap fighter - Kfir perhaps?
Posts: 15
By: Tryggve - 17th November 2013 at 14:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True.If the problem is money (and it certainly looks like that today) they could wait for a while and hope that the economy improves. But any 5th generation fighter will probably be even pricier than the candidates they have shortlisted today. So if budget is an issue in the future that could be a major problem for them. Especially if the Olympics ends up costing a lot more than they planned for.
But we have to wait and see.
Posts: 3,381
By: Rii - 17th November 2013 at 14:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I don't think the problem is lack of funds so much as public perception of government spending priorities, such that a major acquisition is politically untenable at this time. If only the Australian public were as attentive to such matters.
Posts: 15
By: Tryggve - 17th November 2013 at 18:20 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
True. But the current Brazilian administrations don’t seem very eager to allocate the funds needed for this deal to proceed.
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 17th November 2013 at 18:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Any one hve ever approached Br with a leasing offer (7/10y)?
Something like a naval fighter that you cld acquire at the end of the contract and then operate from a carrier?
Posts: 516
By: maurobaggio - 17th November 2013 at 21:18 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
In 18 years three Presidents of the Brazil could not decide which fighter should be chosen for the Brazilian Air Force, though a single president decided to host the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016 while in office
The three presidents belong to two political parties, and both had supported the decision of the FIFA World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, despite all the cost involved and none transfer of technology or industrial compensation.
However all proposals with technology transfer and industrial compensation has been providing by the competitors( USA, France, Sweden,Russia) for 18 years for Brazilian Air Force has been discarded due to the lack of resources.
The Greece hosted the Olympics in 2004. How is going to Greece's the economy in recent years?
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 18th November 2013 at 10:07 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The comparison with Greece isn't appropriate. The scale is different.
Brazil's economy is about ten times as big as Greece's. The Olympics are therefore about ten times as affordable. Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece took delivery of the last of an order of 60 F-16s, having previously bought 80. It bought another 30 after the Olympics, making a total of 170 bought over 18 years. That's like Brazil buying 90 fighters every year for 18 years. Brazil is not planning to spend anywhere near as much, in proportion to its resources.
Brazil can easily afford 36 new fighters, whether or not it's hosting the Olympics.
Posts: 15
By: Tryggve - 18th November 2013 at 12:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes
True, my point was more that the cost for the Olympics and World cup probably will make the government even less willing to spend the money.
Posts: 248
By: Freddy - 18th November 2013 at 12:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Will a video of the SAAB 2020 RC model do instead.
This 5G aircraft might meet Brazil's price expectations when developed.
More pictures.
http://https://reinep.wordpress.com/2011/12/20/images-of-swedish-new-secret-stealth-fighter/
Posts: 4,951
By: MadRat - 18th November 2013 at 14:26 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nice video. It's a good looking airframe layout. Too bad it's F414 and not F1X0 base of design. I am surprised it has no levcon's and opts for the more complex canard layout.
Posts: 5,905
By: TomcatViP - 18th November 2013 at 14:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Yes you're right. But it's a generic concept CFD tested 3 years ago. Hence even a little bit older IMO. So yes it lacks a lot that cld be hve been added given the state of the art today (I will add to your list LE running vortex among other things).
The pfd is worth a read if you've ever been interested in aerodynamics.
Posts: 516
By: maurobaggio - 19th November 2013 at 22:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
If it were so easy for Brazil to buy 36 fighters why three different Presidents has not taken this decision for 18 years?
Before to try answering this question if someone would like to do it, that should be important to recall that for 18 years three different Presidents of Brazil had claimed about economic difficulties for choosing a new fighter for the Brazilian Air Force.
Besides I do not know now the operational status of the Greece Air Force due to financial crisis that has been suffering since 2008, but the Brazil with a supposed 'ten times' larger economy than Greece, the Brazilian Air Force has counted in 2013 with 40% of its fleet out of service for lack resources for maintenance.
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 19th November 2013 at 22:56 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Because Brazil gives it low priority, & Greece gives it a high priority. Brazil spends a smaller proportion of its GDP on the military, & a smaller proportion of its military spending on weapons, equipment, & operations. It spends more on pay, pensions, forces housing etc.
The Greek air force has traditionally maintained a pretty high level of readiness. I don't know if the crisis has affected that, but the retirement of old aircraft has been accelerated.
The economy is not "supposed ten times larger'. It IS ten times larger, converted at exchange rates, which is what matters when one is considering the cost of imported weapons. It's about 8.5 times bigger at purchasing power parities, which is the relevant metric for internal spending. The population is 20 times larger.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 20th November 2013 at 05:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, actually, it's the other way round. Brazil's economy is ten times as big as Greece's, so the profit/bribe margin for olympic infrastructure contractors is ten times as big.
Just before the start of the Olympics, Greece had a near-war event, the Imia/Kardak islet crisis. I don't think Brazil had anything even close to that in the past ten years and, AFAIK, there isn't anyone interesting in creating such an event. So from one point of view, why should Brazil be in a hurry? It's not like their national sovereignty is threatened or something.
Yes, but that was the very last arms procurement since. Greece has not managed to buy anything beyond that until today.
Additionally, the man who made the deal, former defence minister Spiliopoulos, has now retired from politics to enjoy the longest private yacht in western Ionian Sea. Not with his pension money obviously.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 20th November 2013 at 05:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The crisis has affected many things but not readiness, for the time being anyway. Old aircraft are NOT being acceleratingly retired, but the other way round. A-7s for instance, were scheduled for complete retirement in 2008. But they're still with us. F-4Es were scheduled for retirement last year. Guess what. They too are still with us. Not to mention t-2s, M2KEGMs. They simply cannot be retired without some substitution.
Brazil's economy might be even larger than ten times; but this doesn't correspond to wealth of the people. Leaving some urban areas aside, the vast majority of Brazil's population is extremely poor. That majority has a right to vote too and couldn't care less for new uber-modern fighter plane acquisitions.
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 20th November 2013 at 12:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Apart from the illogical "No, actually, it's the other way round. Brazil's economy is ten times as big as Greece's, so the profit/bribe margin for olympic infrastructure contractors is ten times as big. ", as an argument against the affordability of the Olympics (Think, man, think!), your arguments are supportive of my case. You argue that Brazil buys fewer fighters than Greece because it doesn't feel the need for them. That's what I said.
BTW, it isn't true that 'the vast majority of Brazil's population is extremely poor'. There are very many poor people, but not the vast majority. 94% of households own a fridge, 96% a TV, there are more mobile phones than people, a computer for every two people, & half the population is on the internet. There's a motor vehicle for every four people.
I suspect that your image of Brazil is of peasants scraping a living from the earth. 85% of Brazilians are urban.
NB. Statistics on ownership of consumer durables from 2009 to 2012. Current figures will be a little higher.
Posts: 694
By: HAWX ace - 20th November 2013 at 15:24 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Of course that's what you said; but you chose a rather void argument to support it. "Ten times more affordable Olympics", is not only irrelevant (then any country hosting Olympics should be a superpower) but also untrue.
Assumption is the mother of all ****ups. I didn't assume anything; if I did, my image of Brazil would be like a country with an infinite Rio-style carnival party with semi-naked female dancers all over the place 24/7. My image of Brazil comes mostly from brazilian immigrants in Greece, we have a strong latino community.
The problem with statistics is that they can serve many purposes, depending on which numbers you choose to highlight, and which to hide.
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 20th November 2013 at 15:42 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Where did that come from? Again, a lack of logic. I say it's easier for Brazil than Greece to afford the Olympics, because Brazil has a bigger economy. How do you derive "any country hosting Olympics should be a superpower" from that? You're not making sense.
I could have given more data on affordability, for example the size of government debt (Brazil has a much better debt/gdp ratio, & it's better than it was in 2006).
The argument is not irrelevant. It was in response to a claim that Brazil could not afford to host the Olympics because the cost of the Olympics had contributed to Greece's current economic mess. My argument is completely relevant to that.
So where do you get the idea that Brazilians are mostly in desperate poverty? I've been there, travelled around, stayed in Brazilian homes . . . . & studied the statistics you disdain. I have a basis for what I say. Where's your basis? What information is your statement based on?
I've hidden none. Everything I've quoted is from public sources. Yes, statistics can be misused, but in this case, the difference between us is that I have tried to use statistics honestly, to inform debate, & you've completely ignored them in favour of uninformed prejudice.
Posts: 516
By: maurobaggio - 23rd November 2013 at 21:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Indeed the current President of Brazil has been giving a high priority to the military sector, since the two largest projects budgets in 2013 from Government of Brazil are in the military sector such as:
It has been speculated that the predecessor of the current President of Brazil had taken the difficult decision to buy the Rafale F2 for the Brazilian Air Force this program would be today in fulfillment.
The explanation for this is that the current president and his predecessor had failed to justify the purchase of Rafale F2 due to its high cost compared to other competitors, especially the F/A 18E/F Hornet, since all competitors (Gripen NG and F/A 18) offered the same package of technology transfer and industrial offsets.
The interesting preference for the Rafale F2 could be because the same it is French, as the Embraer has 30% of its shareholders owned by the Dassault that is the designer of the Rafale F2 that has given the priority from Embraer to get the resources to develop the KC 390, as well as Submarines Scorpene are French too.
Despite all the technological, commercial and political competence of the France, this preference by French companies has been surprising the other countries once the France has achieved civil and military contracts of great importance of the Brazilian Government, while other countries has been frozen or canceled their contracts, such as the purchase of the Boeing KC 767 for Brazilian Air Force from Israel who had won the competition, but that the President of Brazil has been canceled them because prefer the Airbus KC 330 despite this last one was overcome in the competition.
Perhaps by coincidence the KC 330 belong to Airbus of which France is one of its largest shareholders.
Posts: 13,432
By: swerve - 23rd November 2013 at 22:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
When was the 767 purchase cancelled?