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By: - 17th February 2016 at 00:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easy win? Have you ever looked at the sheer size of both countries?
If there was no revolution in Iran (and subsequently no hostage crisis), there would have been no war, in the first place.. After Khomeini took power in 1976, US and Gulf dictators (SA, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar..) feared the same happening on their own backyard. So they were looking for someone willing to stop Khomeini's attempts to support islamic revolutions all over the place.. someone strong and foolish enough to expose his own people to such tremendous war effort.. and that was Hussein..
Later when Hussein demanded at least partial repayment of his war efforts, he was turned down by everyone.. so he has decided to take it by force.. leading ultimately to the invasion of Kuwait.. the rest is well known..
By: - 17th February 2016 at 16:55 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
E After Khomeini took power in 1976,..
1979.
By: - 17th February 2016 at 20:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
thanks for the correction..
By: - 17th February 2016 at 22:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easy win? Have you ever looked at the sheer size of both countries?If there was no revolution in Iran (and subsequently no hostage crisis), there would have been no war, in the first place.. After Khomeini took power in 1976, US and Gulf dictators (SA, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar..) feared the same happening on their own backyard. So they were looking for someone willing to stop Khomeini's attempts to support islamic revolutions all over the place.. someone strong and foolish enough to expose his own people to such tremendous war effort.. and that was Hussein..
Later when Hussein demanded at least partial repayment of his war efforts, he was turned down by everyone.. so he has decided to take it by force.. leading ultimately to the invasion of Kuwait.. the rest is well known..
Really? I don't know if you've actually bothered to read about the causes of the war, but the first part is ludicrous:
a) no external factor (other than Iran's regime) incited Saddam to attack Iran; they did step in later on with financial and military aid to keep Iraq from losing the war
b) IIRC he didn't demand payment for his efforts, but he thought that the loans provided by Kuwait and other Gulf countries should be forgiven as Iraq couldn't repay them given that the economy was in ruins, they had a huge army to maintain and given that the oil price was rather low - Kuwait and the other Gulf countries also wouldn't accept his demand to lower the production; Saddam probably found that rather insulting given that in his point of view he saved them from Iranian invasion, the Kuwait was a part of Iraq taken away by the British and that they were pumping oil from Iraqi fields.
By: - 17th February 2016 at 22:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Really? I don't know if you've actually bothered to read about the war, but:
a) no external factor (other than Iran's regime) incited Saddam to attack Iran
b) he didn't demand payment for his efforts; he did consider that his loans provided by Kuwait and other Gulf countries should be forgiven as he couldn't repay them given that his economy was in ruins, he had a huge army to maintain and the oil price was rather low (and the other Gulf countries wouldn't lower the production)
a) It depends on point of view.. It's a prevailing and maybe a bit unfortunate opinion throughout the whole Middle East that the US gave green light to Hussein to attack Iran.. The US politicians of that time stated that US gave no clear indication which Saddam might have interpreted as a go.. anyway, we don't know for sure, but the situation certainly played in US favor... The US were quick to restore the diplomatic relations with Iraq and played an active role in negotiating massive loans for Iraq from Saudi Arabia and Kuwait..
b) which is basically the same.. Hussein has demanded UAE and Kuwait to erase the Iraqi debt they held, arguing that the loans should be considered payments to Iraq for protecting the Arab dictators from export of Shiite revolution from Iran..
By: - 17th February 2016 at 23:11 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Easy win? Have you ever looked at the sheer size of both countries?If there was no revolution in Iran (and subsequently no hostage crisis), there would have been no war, in the first place.. After Khomeini took power in 1976, US and Gulf dictators (SA, Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar..) feared the same happening on their own backyard. So they were looking for someone willing to stop Khomeini's attempts to support islamic revolutions all over the place.. someone strong and foolish enough to expose his own people to such tremendous war effort.. and that was Hussein..
Later when Hussein demanded at least partial repayment of his war efforts, he was turned down by everyone.. so he has decided to take it by force.. leading ultimately to the invasion of Kuwait.. the rest is well known..
Please, Please.... Don't pretend to have knowledge of history. The above is an example of the post-911 internet revisionist history of the Middle East. While it's obvious that your worldview was shaped by the events of the last 16 years (I'm guessing your in your early 30's), don't make the mistake of applying today's attitudes and mores to view the past.
The U.S. played no part in Iraq invading Iran. In the early years of the war, Iraq was firmly a Soviet client state. Iran had supported the Kurds fighting a rebellion against Hussein in the early 70's and there had been several clashes between the Shah's forces and Hussein previously. Hussain wanted to be viewed at the leader of the Pan-Arab movement and to wipe the eye of Sadat. He wanted to ensure Iraqi access to the gulf by taking Shatt al-Arab, and avenge his previous rough handling by the Iranian military. He waited till the Ayatollah competed the purge of many of the trained staff of the Iranian armed forces before attacking.
The US gradually began to turn toward Iraq due to the Iranian counter offensive in 1982. Prior to that, there were still some in the US government hoping that Iran would swing back to the US camp (the U.S. even after the overthrow of the Shah, had an understanding with Iran that the U.S. would protect Iran from any hostile attack from the U.S.S.R- The rapid deployment force was created in part to form a blocking force in the Zagreb mountains to resist a Soviet invasion). After 1982, the U.S. was worried that the Iranians would win and many of the moderate forces within the Iranian military had been purged. The attitudes shifted toward propping up Hussein to prevent collapse. The major players in Iraq were, right up until 1990, the French and the Soviets. The U.S. material support for Iraq was minimal, not to mention that the US was still clandestinely selling arms to Iran (Iran-Contra ring a bell?).
Edit- always fight with spell check on Saddam's last name Hussein, thankfully I rarely have to spell his last name anymore.
The U.S. can be blamed, along with the rest of the UN, for doing nothing about the invasion, nor condemning it.
By: - 18th February 2016 at 00:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thanks for your insight.. Some details you have raised were unknown to me...
Generally, I have no intention whatsoever to blame any side.. From what I have read, Israelis, too, have played a vital role in keeping the tanker war hot or at least warm but it's been a while since I have read Ostrovsky's book and do not remember all the details anymore.
By: - 18th February 2016 at 08:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great insight few.
You did forget to mention the actual excuse Saddam gave for the iraqi attack on 1980. Namely these were.
1- Khomeini openly supporting shia islamists in Iraq to kill and overthrow Saddam (bombing of mustansiriya university in April 1980 which wounded tariq aziz amongst other attacks by iranian financed groups).
2- regaining both sides of shat al Arab which iraq signed away in 1975 under duress (shah was funding and arming kurdish rebels.jn northern iraq and soviets cut off supplies in concert).
3-iranian artillery and air strikes into iraqi towns and villages starting in August 1980. Iraq justified the Later attack by saying they wanted to create a buffer zone to protect iraqi towns and settlements along the border from pre meditated iranian bombardment.
Secondary considerations included iranian exiles wishing to return to power, gulf monarchies fearing shia uprisings etc... But the primary considerations were the three above I mention. The fact that nearly 40 years after the war started this fact is still unknown to most people is breathtaking. But I suppose iraqi perspectives are so very rarely known about anything.
With regards to the air war. The war started massively lopsided in irans favour due to.
1- having over 300 bvr capable long range fighters. Vs Iraq having zero bvr capable fighters
2- iraq and 90% of its strategic targets being within easy reach of all iranian aircraft. But most of Iran being beyond the reach of the iraqi airforce (and the 20 tupolev bombers would be too vulnerable to use due to hundreds of iranian bvr fighters to intercept them)
3- both iraq and irans military was being purged at the time. In Iraq hundreds of air force officers and pilots were killed arrested or discharged due to loyalty to either shia parties or the communist party.
4- at the outset of the war both sides had weapons shipments halted by suppliers.
Despite the massive geographical, numerical and technological advantage Iran did not make effective use of its advantage at the beginning of the war. The internal turmoil the had was worse than in Iraq hence the lack of organisation.
Iraq due to its massive geographical and technological inferiority at the beginning of the war was quite defensive with only fleeting attacks Deep into Iran. It was only in about 1986 that Iraq had built a sort of technological parity with Iran in the air. And the remaining two years iraqi airforce could attack and assert itself a bit more... However irans massive territorial advantage remained and could not be surmounted by iraq at all.
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 01:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Great insight few.You did forget to mention the actual excuse Saddam gave for the iraqi attack on 1980. Namely these were.
1- Khomeini openly supporting shia islamists in Iraq to kill and overthrow Saddam (bombing of mustansiriya university in April 1980 which wounded tariq aziz amongst other attacks by iranian financed groups).
2- regaining both sides of shat al Arab which iraq signed away in 1975 under duress (shah was funding and arming kurdish rebels.jn northern iraq and soviets cut off supplies in concert).
3-iranian artillery and air strikes into iraqi towns and villages starting in August 1980. Iraq justified the Later attack by saying they wanted to create a buffer zone to protect iraqi towns and settlements along the border from pre meditated iranian bombardment.Secondary considerations included iranian exiles wishing to return to power, gulf monarchies fearing shia uprisings etc... But the primary considerations were the three above I mention. The fact that nearly 40 years after the war started this fact is still unknown to most people is breathtaking. But I suppose iraqi perspectives are so very rarely known about anything.
With regards to the air war. The war started massively lopsided in irans favour due to.
1- having over 300 bvr capable long range fighters. Vs Iraq having zero bvr capable fighters
2- iraq and 90% of its strategic targets being within easy reach of all iranian aircraft. But most of Iran being beyond the reach of the iraqi airforce (and the 20 tupolev bombers would be too vulnerable to use due to hundreds of iranian bvr fighters to intercept them)
3- both iraq and irans military was being purged at the time. In Iraq hundreds of air force officers and pilots were killed arrested or discharged due to loyalty to either shia parties or the communist party.
4- at the outset of the war both sides had weapons shipments halted by suppliers.Despite the massive geographical, numerical and technological advantage Iran did not make effective use of its advantage at the beginning of the war. The internal turmoil the had was worse than in Iraq hence the lack of organisation.
Iraq due to its massive geographical and technological inferiority at the beginning of the war was quite defensive with only fleeting attacks Deep into Iran. It was only in about 1986 that Iraq had built a sort of technological parity with Iran in the air. And the remaining two years iraqi airforce could attack and assert itself a bit more... However irans massive territorial advantage remained and could not be surmounted by iraq at all.
Great points esp regarding the BVR equipped fighters of Iran AF,I found Tom COopers book (although a fascinating read and fills a great void on this subject ) a little biased in favor of the iranis
Although you might add that a lot of irani pilots were purged as well but techonologically their is no comparison between Iraqi AF and Iranian AF in 1980
when it comes to Mig-25 vs F-4E I believe the foxbat scored a few more kills than the F-4, would you agree ?
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 02:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK, only very few Iraqi Foxbats were lost..
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 03:37 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ah.. Iran-Iraqi air war.
Well the only thing i'm interested in is that..is Iraq really have Kh-22 ? The only source of this is Tom Cooper...and only in literature.. No photos, no physical evidence.. nothing. My correspondence with Flateric of secretprojects and in other forum also yield that Iraqis does not possess Kh-22.
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 07:36 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can someone list the number of each kind of aircraft on each side at the beginning of the war, I can't find this information on the internet.
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 11:04 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Well, the Iranian stocks are quite clear, whatever US hardware they received, they did so prior to the start of the war. Which means: F-14A, F-4E, F-4D, RF-4E, F-5E/F, few F-5A/Bs.
Iraqi inventory at the brink of the war lacked any BVR capable fighters, which means no MiG-23MF, MiG-23ML, MiG-25P/PDS or Mirage F1EQ. They also did not have Super Etendards, MiG-29s, Su-25Ks or Su-24MKs at that time.. Which leaves us with 3rd gen MiG-21 (MF/bis), 2nd gen MiG-21 (PF/PFM), MiG-23BN, MiG-23MS and Su-20 (I believe the Su-22M-2K/M-3K/M-4Ks were also delivered later..)
By: - 23rd February 2016 at 22:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Ah.. Iran-Iraqi air war.Well the only thing i'm interested in is that..is Iraq really have Kh-22 ? The only source of this is Tom Cooper...and only in literature.. No photos, no physical evidence.. nothing. My correspondence with Flateric of secretprojects and in other forum also yield that Iraqis does not possess Kh-22.
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=63
Here an iraqi officer raft says the following after a post by Tom Cooper.
Iraq received 12 tu22 only. Beginning in late 1973.
They never had any missiles and only had freefall bombs
During the war they suffered the following losses.
4X shot down over enemy territory
1X exploded on the ground whilst taxiing during the tawakalna ala Allah battles (bomb fusing issue)
1X was written off after being heavily damaged and having its tail shot off by iranian missiles but still.limbed back to base and landed.
6X planes survived the war.
By: - 24th February 2016 at 00:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
AFAIK, only very few Iraqi Foxbats were lost..
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67
from the same forum the discussion on the MiG-25 but I don't see a list of kills scored by Mig-25PDS
maybe sheytanalkebir can help us
By: - 24th February 2016 at 00:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Iraqi Air-to-Air Victories since 1967 PDF Print E-mail
Contributed by ACIG Team
Aug 25, 2007 at 01:39 PM
List of confirmed, claimed, and probable air-to-air victories scored by the Iraqi pilots since 1967.
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Last Update: March 2011 (for the period Sep '80 - Dec '81)
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Note: Data presented on this list was obtained during extensive research by Tom Cooper, Farzad Bishop and Brig. Gen. Ahmad Sadik (IrAF, ret.) the results of which can be found in the following books:
- "Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988", Schiffer Military History, October 2002, ISBN: 0-7643-1669-9
- "Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat", Osprey "Combat Aircraft" series, June 2003, ISBN: 1-84176-658-5
- "Arab MiG-19 and MiG-21 Units in Combat", Osprey "Combat Aircraft" series, March 2004, ISBN: 1-84176-658-0
- "Iranian F-14 Tomcat Units in Combat", Osprey "Combat Aircraft" series, September 2004, ISBN: 1-84176-787-5
- "La Guerre Iran-Irak : les combats aériens. Vol.01", HORS SÉRIE AVIONS N°22, October 2007
- "La Guerre Iran-Irak : les combats aériens. Vol.02", HORS SÉRIE AVIONS N°23, December 2007
as well as in articles published in different magazines, like "Fire in the Hills", "AirEnthusiast" magazine, volume 104, March 2003.
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Date
Unit
Aircraft
Aircrew
Weapon
Victim
Country
7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 Salem 30mm Vautour IIN 110Sqn IDF/AF
7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 702 Saiful Azam (PAF) 30mm Vautour IIN 110Sqn IDF/AF (Inbar)
7Jun67 4 or 7FS Hunter F.Mk.59 702 Saiful Azam (PAF) 30mm Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (Dror Pow)
7Oct73 70FRS Hunter 30mm A-4E IDF/AF
7Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? A-4E IDF/AF
7Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? A-4E IDF/AF
7Oct73 1FRS Hunter 30mm SMB.2 IDF/AF
8Oct73 702OCU Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (pilot recovered)
9Oct73 9FS MiG-21MF al-Awsi drag Mirage IIICJ IDF/AF (Note /)
9Oct73 702OCU Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm SMB.2 IDF/AF
9Oct73 4FS Hunter F.Mk.59 30mm A-4 IDF/AF
11Oct73 17FS MiG-21PFM ? 23mm TA-4 IDF/AF (Ofri KIA, Shefer OK)
13Oct73 SyAAF/ADF SA-3 SA-3 Hunter FR.10 70FRS (pilot Conner, KIA)
13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? "Mirage" IDF/AF
13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? "Mirage" IDF/AF
13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? SMB.2 IDF/AF
13Oct73 9FBS MiG-21PF R-13 or 23mm? SMB.2 IDF/AF
13Oct73 SyA Army Flak 57mm MiG-21PF 9FS IrAF (pilot Sluszkiewicz, KIA)
18Oct73 8FBS MiG-17 23/37mm F-4E IDF/AF
8Sep80 11FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Sadiq R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Eskandari OK, RIO KIA) 14Sep80 39FS MiG-23 MS 2xAAM Bell214 + 2x AH-1J IRIAA (missed)
23Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MLA Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF
23Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MLA Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF
23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Afshin-Azar KIA)
23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Jahanshahloo KIA)
23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Hassan R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (damaged)
23Sep80 9FS MiG-21MF 1st Lt. Hassan R-13M F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
23Sep80 IrAF 145 Missile Brigade 42 SAM battery Maj. Abdul Wahed 2 x SA-3 Il-76MD 33 Sqn. IrAF
25Sep80 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R-13 F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
25Sep80? FLS MiG-21MF witheld R-13 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Nassin Arkan Abadi POW)
26Sep80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF
26Sep80 ?FS MiG-23MF Ah.Sabah AAM or 23mm? F-5E IRIAF
30Sep80 MiG-21MF T.al-Dinmaruf 23mm F-5E IRIAF
2Oct80 1FS Su-20 1st Lt. Riadh Y. Yousef 30 mm F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Din-Mohammadi/Nouri-Bahadori KIA)
5-7Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS ? 23 mm F-4D 71TFS,TFB.7/IRIAF (Capt. Amir Khosrow/RIO KIA)
8Oct80 7FS MiG-21MF Maj. Nasser Arkan Abadi 23mm F-4D 71TFS/IRIAF (Bijan Haji/Ghodrat Kianjoo KIA)
8Oct80 7FS MiG-21MF ? R-3S F-4D 71TFS/IRIAF
9Oct80 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld 23mm F-4D TFB.6/IRIAF (Shirini/Amiri KIA)
12Oct80 MiG-21MF O. Goben R-13 F-5E IRIAF
12Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 AB.214C IRIAA
12Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 AB.214C IRIAA
?Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF ? R.550 Magic F-5E IRIAF (pilot KIA)
15Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF
15Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4E IRIAF
15Oct80 MiG-21MF R-13 F-4E IRIAF
15Oct80 MiG-21MF 30mm F-4E IRIAF
16Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS AAM? F-4D IRIAF (pilot ?, POW)
19Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF R-13 or fuel starvation F-4E IRIAF (pilot ?/RIO Mir, POW)
20Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (pilot KIA)
20Oct80 9FS MiG-21MF S.A.Razak R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (pilot KIA)
22Oct80 47FS MiG-21bis R-60 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (1st Lt. Mohsen Owshal OK)
23Oct80 1FRS MiG-21MF ”Rayyan” R-13 F-5E IRIAF
23Oct80 1FRS MiG-21MF ”Rayyan” R-13 F-5E IRIAF
24Oct80 ?FS MiG-21MF - R-13M F-14A TFB.7/IRIAF (Hendessi + RIO OK)
26Oct80 ?FS MiG-21MF witheld explosion F-14A IRIAF (damaged)
??Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS Fa’iq 23mm AH-1 IRIAA
1Nov80 9FS MiG-21MF witheld R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Eqbali KIA)
14Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS witheld R-13M F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Zabihi KIA)
22Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13 F-4D IRIAF
26Nov80 47FS MiG-21bis 1st Lt. Abdullah Lau’aybi collision F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Zanjani KIA)
26Nov80 47FS MiG-21bis Capt. Nawfal R-60 F-5E 21TFW/IRIAF (Abdolhassani KIA)
28Nov80 39FS MiG-23MS witheld R-13 F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF
16Oct80 39FS MiG-23MS R-13M F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF (Moftakhari/Koosta KIA)
?Dec80 47FS MiG-21bis Capt. Zeki R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF
5Dec80 F-5 IRIAF
?Dec80 47FS MiG-21bis ? F-14A IRIAF
16Dec80 MiG-21 R-13 MiG-21 IrAF
16Dec80 MiG-21 R-13 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (pilot Y.S.Raad recovered)
16Dec80 MiG-21 flew himself into ground IrAF
9Jan81 fighter AAM? F-4E IRIAF (Qahestani/Koupal KIA)
12Jan81 Mi-25 12.7mm AH-1J IRIAA
18Jan81 MiG-21 R-13 F-4E TFB.4 IRIAF
4Feb81 MiG-23 AAM? F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF (Qoreishi/Ekhbari KIA)
Apr81 MiG-21MF R.550 Magic MiG-21R SyAAF
21Apr81 39FS MiG-23MS 2 x R-3S F-14A IRIAF (damaged)
22Apr81 MiG-21MF R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (damaged)
3May81 1FRS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-60 Gulfstream III Algerian Government
??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
??May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic AH-1J IRIAA (Susangerd Det.)
7May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
8May81 ??FS MiG-21MF witheld R.550 Magic F-5E TFB.4/IRIAF
23May81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
23May81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
28Jul81 Fighter Helo IRIAA
20Oct81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ ? R.550 Magic F-4E 62TFS/IRIAF (damaged)
4Dec81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ Maj. Mukhalad R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (damaged)
12Dec81 79FS Mirage F.1EQ ? AAM F-4E IRIAF
27Jan82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ Super 530F RF-4E IRIAF
26Feb82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ Super 530F F-5E IRIAF
Mar82 MiG-21 R.550 Magic F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
1Apr82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld AAM F-5E TFB.?/IRIAF (pilot Qazani KIA)
5May82 MiG-21MF - helo IRIAA
6May82 Fighter Helo IRIAA
6May82 Fighter Helo IRIAA
16Jul82 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
16Jul82 4ATTSOS/IrAAC Mi-25 witheld intercepted Bell 214C IRIAA
??Oct82 17FS MiG-21MF A.Salem 23mm AH-1J IRIAA
??Oct82 17FS MiG-21MF A.Salem 23mm AH-1J IRIAA
??Oct82 ?FS MiG-21MF witheld ? F-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Moharram TO)
27Oct82 Mi-24 AT-6 F-4E IRIAF (Note 2)
21Nov82 Mirage F.1EQ R.550 Magic F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
??Dec82 23FS MiG-23MF O.Goben R-23 F-5E IRIAF (dam. & forced down)
27Jan83 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Farasyabi/Saber recovered)
??Feb83 96FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40 C-130 TFB.1/IRIAF
Aug/Sep83 ? Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (Hadi/Gholamhosseini PoW)
14Sep83 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
4Oct83 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
??Jan83 79FS Mirage F.1EQ W.Hala’el Super 530F F-100 THK
21Nov83 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-5E IRIAF (Note 5)
??Jan83 79FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-100 THK
????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-5E IRIAF (Note 5)
????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B F-4D IRIAF (Note 5)
????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B C-130H IRIAF (Note 5)
????83 MiG-21MF AIM-9B Bell 214C IRIAA (Note 5)
??--84 92FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (pilot?)
5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
5Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
24Feb84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
25Feb84 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
26Feb84 11FS? MiG-21MF S.Auda 23mm CH-47C IRIAA (crew OK)
27Feb84 ??FS MiG-21bis 23mm CH-47C IRIAA
27Feb84 CH-47 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.206 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
27Feb84 AB.214 IRIAA
1Jul84 Mirage F.1EQ F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
11Aug84 63FS MiG-23ML 1stLt.? R-60MK F-14A 81TFW/IRIAF (All-e-Agha KIA/Rostampour OK)
11Aug84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
11Aug84 F-14A IRIAF (Note 1)
29Dec84 ?FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (Dehqan/Saber recovered)
????84 ??FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld Super 530F EC-130 IRIAF
Feb/Mar85 ?FS Multiple Fighters ? Super 530F F-4E IRIAF (pilot ?/RIO Reza'i KIA)
21Mar85 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 F-4D IRIAF (pilot Khalatbari, KIA)
5Jun85 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 F-4E IRIAF
6Feb86 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-24 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF
13Feb86 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-24 F-5E TFB.2/IRIAF (Varzdar KIA)
13Feb86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
15Feb86 ?FS Mirage F.1EQ witheld R.550 Magic F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (crew recovered)
15Feb86 MiG-23ML R-24 F-4E IRIAF
15Feb86 MiG-23ML R-24 F-4E IRIAF
16Feb86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
20Feb86 ??FS MiG-23ML O.Goben R-23 Fokker F.27-600 (EP-IOK?) Civilian (Note 3)
23Feb86 ??FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40RD+R-40TD EC-130E Khoofash IRIAF
22May86 Mi-25 AH-1J IRIAA
10Jun86 96FS MiG-25PD ”Rayyan” R-40 RF-4E TFB.3/IRIAF (Zolfaqari/Norouzi KIA)
2Oct86 96FS MiG-25PD ? R-40 MiG-21RF SyAAF
??Oct86 MiG-25PDS RF-4E IDF/AF
17Jan87 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-? F-14A TFB.7/IRIAF (Ghanei OK/Assl-e-Davtalab KIA)
1Feb87 Fighter AAM F-4E IRIAF
1Feb87 Fighter AAM F-5E IRIAF
27Mar87 Mirage F.1EQ-4 A.Salem R.550 Magic F-4E IRIAF (crew ejected, fate unk.)
2Jul87 ? ? ? MiG-21 SyAAF
????87 Hunter F.Mk.59 R.550 Magic F-5E IRIAF
????87 Hunter F.MK.59 R.550 Magic C-130 IRIAF
5Feb88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 witheld Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF (Zandi&RIO OK)
??Apr88 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-60MK MiG-29 5FS/IrAF (fratricide)
22May88 SA.342L 20mm AH-1J IRIAA
23May88 SA.342L 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
25May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
25May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
30May88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
??May88 Mirage F.1EQ F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF
3Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
4Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
9Jun88 Mi-25 20mm AB.214C IRIAA
14Jun87 ?FS MiG-23ML witheld AAM F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (pilot Solarie KIA)
14Jun87 ?FS MiG-23ML witheld AAM F-4E TFB.4/IRIAF (crew ?)
25Jun88 MiG-23ML R-60M AH-1J IRIAA
19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Al.Sabah Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF
19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Super 530D F-14A TFB.8/IRIAF
19Jul88 115FS Mirage F.1EQ-6 Super 530D F-4E TFB.6/IRIAF
17Jan91 96FS MiG-25PDS witheld R-40RD F/A-18C AA400 VFA-83/USN (note 6)
17Jan91 63FS MiG-23ML witheld R-60 F-111F USAF
17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-27R MiG-23ML ?FS/IrAF (fratricide)
17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-27R B-52G USAF
17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29 witheld R-60MK F-111F USAF
17Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29A witheld R-60MK Tornado IDS AMI (Note 4)
18Jan91 4 or 5FS MiG-29A witheld R-60MK Tornado GR.Mk.1 27Sqn/RAF (Note 4)
29Jan91 96FS MiG-25PD witheld R-40RD + R-40TD F-15C USAF (Note 4)
16Jan93 96FS MiG-25PD Intercepted F-15E USAF
23Dec02 96FS MiG-25PD R-60 or R-40T/R RQ-1A Predator USAF
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Note 1: During the war with Iran the authorities in Baghdad issued a total of over 70 claims for downings of IRIAF F-14s. Between 12 and 14 of these are known in the West - mainly because they were forwarded by the FBIS ("Foreign Broadcast Information Service"). Closer examination of these claims proved that only one of them can roughly be brought into connection with a loss of an Iranian F-14: this is the case of a loss of a single Tomcat near Khark Island, on 11 August 1984. This was confirmed by post-war investigation of the wreckage. All the other known Iraqi claims for downings of Iranian F-14s are posted here in order to show that ACIG.org knows about them but also that we know that they are unsubstained claims.
Note 2: For complete background of this claim see the article "Fire in the Hills", "AirEnthusiast" magazine, volume 104, March 2003.
Note 3: Situation unclear due to completely conflicting reports. Iranians claimed the F.27 of Iran Asseman Airlines (EP-ANA, c/n10554) was attacked by Iraqi fighters and shot down, killing 49 aboard. The Iraqis first denied, then admited the plane was shot down, then said the plane was damaged and landed safely. Capt. Omar Goben was later credited with destroying an Iranian F.27 on the ground, using bombs, "in February 1986". It is likely that this was the F.27 "EP-IOK", however, which was later reported as being purposedly blown up by the Iranians in order to let the international press believe the original report - about an Iranian civilian airliner being shot down by Iraqi interceptors. Namely, the F.27 "EP-ANA" - then in service with the NIOC (National Iranian Oil Company) - was later reported as w/o in an accident (unrelated to IPGW) that happened on 4 October 1990. To further complicate the matters surrounding this incident, three days later the IrAF shot down an IRIAF (E)C-130 Khofaash ELINT/SIGINT reconnaissance aircraft. According to Iraqi sources, which do not deny the downing of the civilian F.27 on 20 February 1986, the Iranian authorities concealed the loss of the Khofaash. Instead, its crew was declared as killed when F.27 was shot down.
Note 4: Extensive investigation of Iraqi interceptor operations during the IIPGW by the ACIG.org team, mainly conducted with the help of former IrAF interceptor-pilots, initially proved that no Iraqi pilot claimed even a single confirmed kill against any Coallition aircraft. Interviewed pilots stressed that they never fully recovered from the fact that they failed to shot down even one enemy, despite their sternous efforts to mount at least a single successful interception, and a number of air combats in which they fired missiles. On the basis of this as well as on the basis of additional evidence supplied from official USAF, USN, RAF and AMI documents, conclusion was that there is no basis for any of the known claims for downing of Coallition aircraft by IrAF interceptors in 1991. These entries will be kept in the list nevertheless as a designation of our position in regards to them, but they remain marked white. Additional Iraqi sources, however, are currently providing new – previously unpublished – information and details about various interceptions of US and Coallition aircraft. These are still under examination.
Note 5: Because of persistent problems with the R-13 and R-13R missiles they purchased previously from the USSR and Czechoslovakia, and Soviet refusal to deliver R-60s, in 1982 the Iraqis purchased 200 AIM-9B Sidewinder missiles from Jordan (all of which were from a batch produced in 1967), in exchange for oil and two Iranian F-5Es that were previously captured intact. Sidewinders were mounted on MiG-21MFs that were modified to carry R.550 Magic missiles, because the installations for these weapons is compatible. The Iraqis claimed a total of five air-to-air kills with these missiles, including two F-5Es, one F-4D, one C-130H, and a Bell 214C helicopter. Except that they should have been scored "within 12 months" of first Sidewinder-deliveries to Iraq, exact dates of these claims remain unknown, and there is no firm confirmation from Iran. It is very likely that most of these claims should have occurred in 1983, then the only confirmed case of an IRIAF F-5E falling intact into Iraqi hands occured in December 1982.
Note 6: The team of ACIG.org researchers obtained exclusive materials describing the interception of an USN F/A-18 Hornet aircraft by an IrAF MiG-25PD at exactly the time and in place where the plane flown by Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down, in the early morning of 17 January 1991. Considering the available evidence, we are now convinced that Lt.Cdr. Speicher was shot down by an Iraqi MiG-25 "Foxbat", using a single R-40/AA-6 Acrid missile - despite explanations by other IrAF pilots we interviewed previously, that none of them would know about any Iraqi pilot to have scored an air-to-air kill against Coalition aircraft during this war.
By: - 24th February 2016 at 11:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i think by now its clearly established that the list is fantasy... kills made by iraqi planes that did not exist. iran shooting down 2-3x more planes than iraq lost in total etc...
By: - 24th February 2016 at 12:05 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
http://iraqimilitary.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=67from the same forum the discussion on the MiG-25 but I don't see a list of kills scored by Mig-25PDS
maybe sheytanalkebir can help us
from the officers there, iraqi MiG25PDS did not go deep into Iranian airspace due to GCI limitations.
One MiG25RB was lost in combat during the war over Iran.
There was no mig25 pilot called "mohammad rayan" which was simply a myth.
there are quite a few old iraq officers active on this Facebook page. you can ask them about kills.
https://www.facebook.com/Armyofiraq/?fref=photo
but it seems the numbers of kills were rather small. mainly the MiG25s were flown as recon and bombing planes. the interceptors seem to have had not much to do during much of the war.
By: - 24th February 2016 at 14:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i think by now its clearly established that the list is fantasy... kills made by iraqi planes that did not exist. iran shooting down 2-3x more planes than iraq lost in total etc...
This seems to be a general problem with ACIG lists.
By: - 24th February 2016 at 19:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
i think by now its clearly established that the list is fantasy... kills made by iraqi planes that did not exist. iran shooting down 2-3x more planes than iraq lost in total etc...
I'm not reading this right, the list is of Iraqi planes shooting down Iranian planes
this list the ones in green on the acig are confirmed others are in white which are claims
what are u suggesting ? the Iranians exaggerated their kills or Iraqis or both ?
Posts: 275
By: arquebus - 17th February 2016 at 00:12
Im sure Iraq thought they would have an easy win in this war considering embassy hostage crisis would make it impossible for Iran to wage war with all american weaponry. But Iran was able to inflict heavy damage with their air force particularly against the initial armored invasion force. If the hostage crisis did not happen and Iran was able to get spares and resupply for its military it would appear that Iran could have overwhelmingly defeated Iraq in the war. Im wondering what opinions here are on the Iranian and Iraqi air forces during this war.