RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

By: J33Nelson - 22nd March 2001 at 03:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

I keep on hearing rumours that Malaysia wants to buy the Su-30.. Does anyone know if this is true or not?? I think it would be better for Malaysia to focus on the Mig-29SMT to save money.. Everyone knows that the Su-30 is a great fighter and better then the Mig-29 but I think Malaysia would be better off buying the Mig-29SMT.. Anyone agree or disagree with me??

J33Nelson

By: minmiester - 22nd March 2001 at 07:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

You mean October 1998's Exercise Churinga? (there hasn't been any major exercises involving the RAAF and RMAF since then, although the RAAF has been host for the Kakadu, Pitch Black and other exercises that regurlary attract the USAF, RAF, RSAF, RNZAF and others).

In October 1998, 77SQN based at RAAFB Williamtown sent 10 F/A-18 Hornets to RMAFB Kuantan for the Churinga exercises, focusing on air-to-air sorties between RMAF Mig-29N(SD)s and RAAF F/A-18s.

RMAF Mig-29Ns at the time were armed with the R-27 and R-73 (coupled to HMS), and were/are compatible with R-77s (which have not been ordered. NB, Singapore will have it's AMRAAMs delivered when RMAF -29s get R-77s).

RAAF Hornets at the time were armed with the AIM-9M and AIM-7M, ASRAAM and AMRAAM were not yet compatible or delivered (both ASRAAM and AMRAAM now arm the RAAF's partially upgraded (HUG is still underway) Hornets.

During 1 vs. 1 battles, RAAF Hornets found themselves in the defensive a lot earlier than if they were exercising against another Hornet, due to the formidable R-73/HMS, but still managed to come out of the exercises with a favourable (approx 1.2:1) kill ratio through a combination of manouevres, flares and other defensive measures, as well as offensive "kills". Note, all air battles at Exercise Churinga were visual setup 1 vs. 1 engagements, thus no BVR nor multi-ship engagements, situations that would have increased the kill ratio even greater in the RAAF's favour. 1 vs. 1 visual engagements are what the Fulcrum excels in, it was a shame there were no longer BVR and multi-ship engagements. Also, flying time was somewhat limited, due to the Mig's short (short, short, short...) combat radius, having to land when the Hornets still had plenty in reserve. The Mig's RD-33s were also noted as very smoky at military power, enabling easy visual acquisition and identification at medium or long visual ranges.

RAAF Hornet pilots noted "the MiGs were trying to keep fast so they could fly the aircraft into the vertical", an area where the Mig has a substantial advantage over the lesser powered Hornet, whereas the Hornets tried to engage the Migs into turning battles, where the Hornet had an advantage. Instantaneous turn rates in the Fulcrum were better, but Hornets had far better sustained turn rates at lower speeds.

And now, for a slide show:

http://members.optushome.com.au/mschew/churinga01.jpg

http://members.optushome.com.au/mschew/churinga02.jpg

I apologise for the rather crap quality of my scans.

MinMiester

By: minmiester - 22nd March 2001 at 07:22 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Malaysia did look seriously into some Flanker variants (most probably the Su-30) just before the Asian Economic Crisis, and are still interested in the Su-30 to add a long range strike and interception capability. However, my opinion is that 3 front-line combat aircraft types (Mig-29N, F/A-18D, Su-30) is far too many for such a small airforce to operate efficiently. Malaysia should stick to acquiring more Mig-29s or more Hornets. Buying the hornets in the first place was probably not a top idea, but the Mig-29s lacked range for striking, and the Hornet provided this extra range.

MinMiester

By: Honest Abdul - 22nd March 2001 at 09:43 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Frankly a 1.2:1 kill ratio is quite good for the RMAF to achieve- indicates that in the right hands, the Mig-29 is every bit the equal of the F-18 unlike the Gulf War etc where it was a turkey shoot. I wonder what the pilot skill of RMAF is- I know some time ago, the PAF was asked to send a training deputation- I don't recall if they did.

By: minmiester - 22nd March 2001 at 09:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

LAST EDITED ON 22-Mar-01 AT 10:41 AM (GMT)[p]LAST EDITED ON 22-Mar-01 AT 09:56 AM (GMT)

LAST EDITED ON 22-Mar-01 AT 09:53 AM (GMT)

1:1.2 is a very good kill ratio for the RMAF Mig-29s, but you must remember that:

a) engagements were ONLY WVR, where the Mig-29 excels

b) there were NO BVR engagements, thus the Hornet was not able to exploit its better avionics, radar and BVR weapons

c) there were no multi-ship engagements, where the Hornet would again excel due to better SA and better training.

After taking the above into account, I can only conclude that there's still room for improvement in the RMAF. Mig-29s (armed with the R-73 coupled to a HMS) in the WVR arena should really be at least 1:1 with the less maneuvreble (AIM-9M and no HMS equipped) Hornet, if not better.

I would hope the RMAF will continue to improve their training. If they remain level, I doubt they'd get close to 1:1.2 the next time around with ASRAAM/HMCS armed Hornets.

MinMiester

By: Saadullah Johan - 22nd March 2001 at 11:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Thanks for the good account, Min.

Malaysia continues to be interested in the Su-30 and reports to this effect keep coming up in the local media. Just a couple of weeks ago an Indian Air Force team visited Malaysia and one of the outcomes of the visit seemed to be some sort of an IAF-RMAF information sharing arrangement as regards the Indian Su-30 programme. At the same time MAPO continues to market the MiG-29SMT heavily in Malaysia. The Malaysian Ministry of Defence are holding their cards very close to their chest on this one.

Personally I would like to see more '29s in the shape of the SMT and also more F/A-18Ds (although any further '18Ds will have to be ex-USMC - I cannot see E/Fs in the RMAF). But I guess the Malaysian government is wary of U.S. politics. Thus a scenario involving the demise of the Hornet force in favour of a larger Su-30 force may be possible. How exactly the Hornets will figure in this scenario is anyone's guess (mine is slow relegation to support then reserve status until sold or stored).

Any other Malaysians out there who can shed better light?

SJohan

By: biffbutkus1 - 22nd March 2001 at 14:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Min, I really wish you would visit the Flanker2 forum and post this information (about RAAF Vs RMAF.) On that forum, there seems to be a rather "steroidally enhanced" version of this "RAAF F18 vs. RMAF Mig29" thing that has become very distorted. According to one "bobb671," RAAF F18s were armed w/ AMRAAM and were being "slaughtered" on NUMEROUS occasions by Mig29s armed w/ R77. This "account" has become a "fact" on the forum and is constantly referred to by the commies there as reasom for Russian aircraft superiority. I find the story "fishy" to say the least.

Would you care to educate them?? :D :D :D

By: biffbutkus1 - 22nd March 2001 at 14:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Well, it looks like someone DID post your account Min. Who is Cranehunter?

By: cesar - 22nd March 2001 at 15:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

about the AAM R-77 i think that malaysia had get them (i{m sure that india and peru had and china is asking for them).

By: mercurion - 22nd March 2001 at 15:41 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

My impression was that Malaysia wanted Hornets as a first choice, and they would have ordered only Hornets, but MiG countered with an offer that was too good to refuse, so they ended up with 2 types.
The eternal Q:
Why do nations with limited budgets 'always' seem to operate way too many types for a given role? It's happened more than once.
I sometimes wonder if it's a prestige thing: I'm sure the Malaysian gov would get a kick out of fielding a squad of Su-30's.

By: Harry - 22nd March 2001 at 19:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

The performance of the Hornet against the RMAF Mig-29s was almost certainly due to superior training of the RAAF.Remember the Luftwaffe Mig-29s vs NATO?It was a slaughter!!

By: Harry - 22nd March 2001 at 19:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

As for the R-77,both China and India have them on order.

By: minmiester - 23rd March 2001 at 06:10 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Where is this Flanker2 forum I continually hear about? Someone link me there, I'll straighten a few of the commie bastards out!!! :D

MinMiester

By: minmiester - 23rd March 2001 at 06:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

Harry, given an equal level of pilot training, an R-73/HMS Mig-29 is going to win more times than not against a Sidewinder armed Hornet at WVR combat. However, in a REAL combat situation, the -29 would almost certainly be knocked out of the sky by AIM-7M before it was able to get close enough to use its formidable WVR systems. R-27 is far from a "dangerous" BVR missile, easily fooled by defensive countermeasures and easily jammed. Now, just think about a 2001 Churinga, with R-73/HMS and R-27 armed Mig-29s versus AIM-132 and AIM-120B armed Hornet, INCLUDING exercises at BVR? Now, think ahead to 2003, when R-73/HMS and R-27 armed Mig-29s (RMAF has yet to order R-77s) could take on AIM-132/HMCS and AIM-120B armed Hornet +'s? That's is why the 1:1.2 kill ratio for the RMAF against the RAAF in 1998 is not as good a figure as it should be, seeing as exercises were WVR only and with R-73/HMS armed Fulcrums facing off against AIM-9M armed Hornets. The remedy? More training for the RMAF, there's always room for improvement.

MinMiester

By: Ahjor - 23rd March 2001 at 11:38 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00

RE: RAAF vs Malaysian MiG-29s

RMAF Mig 29 pilots have been trained by the Indian Air Force - the most skilled Mig 29 operator today ( alongwith the Luftwaffe0. No wonder the kill ratios werent that bad:-)