By: qattara
- 25th February 2013 at 08:15Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
all is quiet, no one to date has asked the wp of the place where the bones are, after a meeting in Cairo with the authorities farce everything is back in silence........
this statement refers to the meeting held with the Egyptian police after the mandate of the British Embassy.
The inter-university cooperation instead progressing well
By: qattara
- 25th February 2013 at 08:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
my and our hope is to give an identity to the bones of the desert, Germans or Italians belonging to the Commonwealth.
However, we are wordless to the attitude taken towards us, as if we were charlatans and profiteers, but we do not earn anything from this story, or rather we spend our money and we put our reputation ....
By: pat1968
- 25th February 2013 at 08:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Quattara, some of the things that have been said on this forum regarding you and your colleagues efforts have been frankly embarrassing. What I can assure you is that the family of Dennis Copping greatly appreciate those efforts!
New
By: Anonymous
- 25th February 2013 at 09:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
By: Snoopy7422
- 25th February 2013 at 14:46Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Predictable Response.
Pat1968;- 'I am not sure this post even deserves a response. You clearly have never served in the military and lost a colleague and friend. I can assure you if you had you wouldn't suggest that showing concern for the family of a fallen serviceman is childish.'
Wrong on all counts. So much for 'clearly'....:rolleyes: As for the last point, obviously, I made no such assertion.
Whilst several people here seem to be trying to outdo each other in the righteous-indignation/moral-high-ground stakes, my basic point is that linking the Copping issue to the rescue of the a/c is simply childishly poor logic. And, yes, if the a/c's in a container somewhere secure now, great, at least it's protected.
Identifying remains is a wholly separate issue. Generally, the UK state/MOD has a pretty good record for dealing with it's fallen service personnel and the upkeep of it's cemeteries etc. If they seem to be dragging their feet, perhaps they have good reasons..... If the authorites have new information - one presumes they'll tell the family first, rather than an open internet forum...
As for the assertions in parts of this thread that the passage of time is irrelevant - well, that's obviously unrealistic. There is an inevitable loss of urgency after seventy-one years, frankly, it's pointless pretending otherwise. It's also illogical to suggest that recognising these realities by any party - infers in anyway any disrespect for the dead - or their descendants.
I don’t think that pompous moralizing automatically equates with showing either dignity or respect, but then again, millions watch ‘reality TV’ these days, so maybe I’m just old-hat.
I sincerely hope that the remains found are Copping, so that the lad can buried with some dignity. If they are not his remains what then...?
By: David Burke
- 25th February 2013 at 14:51Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Childishly poor logic ?? The aircraft is in the middle of a remote desert -getting there has cost a lot of money -the human remains are a very short distance away but are not recovered ! I don't think your logic is going to gel with many people!
By: jeepman
- 25th February 2013 at 15:03Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ummm.......
Can somebody explain to me why there seems to be an continuing embargo on free discussion about the proposed final destination of the airframe when this appears to have been openly discussed elsewhere for a number of months now?
By: qattara
- 25th February 2013 at 15:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am Italian, and the problem affects me only as the discoverer well as a human being, but you realize that you are all kidding?
you busy writing posts, open forum, to ask your political opinions, and meanwhile as the ancient Greeks said ... panta rei!!
By: Peter
- 25th February 2013 at 16:08Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Despite some of the comments on here Quattara you have earned my utmost respect as being the only one/group that has the full intention of bringing a closure for the family and recovering any or all remains found of Dennis.
By: DaveF68
- 25th February 2013 at 19:59Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Can somebody explain to me why there seems to be an continuing embargo on free discussion about the proposed final destination of the airframe when this appears to have been openly discussed elsewhere for a number of months now?
That is slightly disquieting that the fate of Sgt Copping and the ultimate destination of the a/c is being openly advertised and discussed over the pond, yet there is an official black-out here. I suspect the cold hand of politics is involved.
By: jeepman
- 25th February 2013 at 20:33Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but to what end?
New
By: Anonymous
- 25th February 2013 at 20:44Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
'Generally, the UK state/MOD has a pretty good record for dealing with it's fallen service personnel and the upkeep of it's cemeteries etc.
Whilst the MOD probably has a good record for dealing with current fallen service personnel it has neither the resources nor the inclination to proactively deal with casualties from old wars. It will, however, deal with such cases reactively when historic cases come to light.
In the case of Flt Sgt Copping his location in Egypt is a serious hindrance. It is not, however, an impossibility - although the criticism, really, of the authorities in this case has been largely with the diplomatic end of the British chain in Cairo. Failings at that end would appear to have been what resulted in the family being formally notified that the discovered remains were not those of Flt Sgt Copping and were 400 years old. Due to the diligence and suspicions of certain members of this forum the incorrect nature of this information was uncovered and the MOD had to admit to the family that, in fact, the remains had not been examined or tested. In short, they could not say after all whether the remains were those of Flt Sgt Copping or not, or whether they were indeed 400 years old. Whilst (perhaps) an isolated incident it is hardly redolent of a "pretty good record when dealing with its fallen service personnel".
As to the matter of the upkeep of cemeteries, this is outside the scope of the MOD and is solely a Commonwealth War Graves Commission responsibility. In respect of this and other cases the CWGC is beyond reproach, acts according to its Royal Charter and is not funded from the Defence budget. Additionaly, the CWGC does not of course have a remit for the discovery or recovery of fallen casualties.
By: paul178
- 26th February 2013 at 01:06Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And are we no longer supposed to refer to Bader as "Bader", or Galland as "Galland"?
You can do what you like but it just seems to me that in a delicate thread dealing with someone who probably died a horrible death in our defence a little respect would be nice.
By: mmitch
- 26th February 2013 at 09:47Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect due to the current instability of the political situation in Egypt.
It didn't seem to hinder the RAFM expedition.
When I read the lengths the USA goes to recover their missing from Vietnam, Cambodia etc I despair of our MOD.
mmitch.
Posts: 52
By: qattara - 25th February 2013 at 08:15 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
all is quiet, no one to date has asked the wp of the place where the bones are, after a meeting in Cairo with the authorities farce everything is back in silence........
this statement refers to the meeting held with the Egyptian police after the mandate of the British Embassy.
The inter-university cooperation instead progressing well
Posts: 258
By: pat1968 - 25th February 2013 at 08:21 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Many thanks for the update qattara a little good news at least!
Posts: 52
By: qattara - 25th February 2013 at 08:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
my and our hope is to give an identity to the bones of the desert, Germans or Italians belonging to the Commonwealth.
However, we are wordless to the attitude taken towards us, as if we were charlatans and profiteers, but we do not earn anything from this story, or rather we spend our money and we put our reputation ....
Posts: 258
By: pat1968 - 25th February 2013 at 08:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Quattara, some of the things that have been said on this forum regarding you and your colleagues efforts have been frankly embarrassing. What I can assure you is that the family of Dennis Copping greatly appreciate those efforts!
By: Anonymous - 25th February 2013 at 09:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Seconded.
Posts: 52
By: qattara - 25th February 2013 at 09:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
we are in contact and for us it is the best award
Posts: 2,598
By: paulmcmillan - 25th February 2013 at 10:16 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Maybe we will have to await the South Evertt Beacon report of what was said
Do the Yanks know what a "bollocking" is
http://south-everett.villagesoup.com/p/mystery-of-buried-wwii-plane-revealed/965674
PS that word got through the forum filters!
Posts: 797
By: Snoopy7422 - 25th February 2013 at 14:46 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Predictable Response.
Pat1968;- 'I am not sure this post even deserves a response. You clearly have never served in the military and lost a colleague and friend. I can assure you if you had you wouldn't suggest that showing concern for the family of a fallen serviceman is childish.'
Wrong on all counts. So much for 'clearly'....:rolleyes: As for the last point, obviously, I made no such assertion.
Whilst several people here seem to be trying to outdo each other in the righteous-indignation/moral-high-ground stakes, my basic point is that linking the Copping issue to the rescue of the a/c is simply childishly poor logic. And, yes, if the a/c's in a container somewhere secure now, great, at least it's protected.
Identifying remains is a wholly separate issue. Generally, the UK state/MOD has a pretty good record for dealing with it's fallen service personnel and the upkeep of it's cemeteries etc. If they seem to be dragging their feet, perhaps they have good reasons..... If the authorites have new information - one presumes they'll tell the family first, rather than an open internet forum...
As for the assertions in parts of this thread that the passage of time is irrelevant - well, that's obviously unrealistic. There is an inevitable loss of urgency after seventy-one years, frankly, it's pointless pretending otherwise. It's also illogical to suggest that recognising these realities by any party - infers in anyway any disrespect for the dead - or their descendants.
I don’t think that pompous moralizing automatically equates with showing either dignity or respect, but then again, millions watch ‘reality TV’ these days, so maybe I’m just old-hat.
I sincerely hope that the remains found are Copping, so that the lad can buried with some dignity. If they are not his remains what then...?
Posts: 9,780
By: David Burke - 25th February 2013 at 14:51 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Childishly poor logic ?? The aircraft is in the middle of a remote desert -getting there has cost a lot of money -the human remains are a very short distance away but are not recovered ! I don't think your logic is going to gel with many people!
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 25th February 2013 at 15:03 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
ummm.......
Can somebody explain to me why there seems to be an continuing embargo on free discussion about the proposed final destination of the airframe when this appears to have been openly discussed elsewhere for a number of months now?
Posts: 52
By: qattara - 25th February 2013 at 15:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I am Italian, and the problem affects me only as the discoverer well as a human being, but you realize that you are all kidding?
you busy writing posts, open forum, to ask your political opinions, and meanwhile as the ancient Greeks said ... panta rei!!
Posts: 10,174
By: Peter - 25th February 2013 at 16:08 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Despite some of the comments on here Quattara you have earned my utmost respect as being the only one/group that has the full intention of bringing a closure for the family and recovering any or all remains found of Dennis.
Posts: 1,777
By: DaveF68 - 25th February 2013 at 19:59 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
That is slightly disquieting that the fate of Sgt Copping and the ultimate destination of the a/c is being openly advertised and discussed over the pond, yet there is an official black-out here. I suspect the cold hand of politics is involved.
Posts: 1,988
By: jeepman - 25th February 2013 at 20:33 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
but to what end?
By: Anonymous - 25th February 2013 at 20:44 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Whilst the MOD probably has a good record for dealing with current fallen service personnel it has neither the resources nor the inclination to proactively deal with casualties from old wars. It will, however, deal with such cases reactively when historic cases come to light.
In the case of Flt Sgt Copping his location in Egypt is a serious hindrance. It is not, however, an impossibility - although the criticism, really, of the authorities in this case has been largely with the diplomatic end of the British chain in Cairo. Failings at that end would appear to have been what resulted in the family being formally notified that the discovered remains were not those of Flt Sgt Copping and were 400 years old. Due to the diligence and suspicions of certain members of this forum the incorrect nature of this information was uncovered and the MOD had to admit to the family that, in fact, the remains had not been examined or tested. In short, they could not say after all whether the remains were those of Flt Sgt Copping or not, or whether they were indeed 400 years old. Whilst (perhaps) an isolated incident it is hardly redolent of a "pretty good record when dealing with its fallen service personnel".
As to the matter of the upkeep of cemeteries, this is outside the scope of the MOD and is solely a Commonwealth War Graves Commission responsibility. In respect of this and other cases the CWGC is beyond reproach, acts according to its Royal Charter and is not funded from the Defence budget. Additionaly, the CWGC does not of course have a remit for the discovery or recovery of fallen casualties.
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 26th February 2013 at 00:12 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Would the poster who refers to Flt Sgt Copping as "Copping" consider adding his rank or forename to his posts in future.
Posts: 3,208
By: Mike J - 26th February 2013 at 00:39 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
And are we no longer supposed to refer to Bader as "Bader", or Galland as "Galland"?
Posts: 2,841
By: paul178 - 26th February 2013 at 01:06 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
You can do what you like but it just seems to me that in a delicate thread dealing with someone who probably died a horrible death in our defence a little respect would be nice.
Posts: 1,777
By: DaveF68 - 26th February 2013 at 03:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I suspect due to the current instability of the political situation in Egypt.
Posts: 1,746
By: mmitch - 26th February 2013 at 09:47 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It didn't seem to hinder the RAFM expedition.
When I read the lengths the USA goes to recover their missing from Vietnam, Cambodia etc I despair of our MOD.
mmitch.