By: John Green
- 5th October 2017 at 11:17Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nevertheless, you must agree that evidenced by the far from pretty scenes shown on TV there are - certainly to my eye - significant numbers of quite volatile Catalans out on the streets screaming for something. For what are they screaming ? Most of the posters shown, mention independence.
AK, matters of this kind when supported by significant numbers quickly gain momentum. All the 'legalities' in the world amount to nothing. Almost anything can become 'legal' if that 'anything' has enough tangible support.
By: Agent K
- 5th October 2017 at 11:25Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thing is the TV/media are showing what they want to show, my week has taken me to Barcelona and Madrid, I'm currently in Madrid, and it's quite different on the ground, to my eye, and from what I hear talking to my Spanish colleagues.
What you describe becomes anarchy if not checked by a legal framework and law and order. If there is a legitimate majority then this vote should be pushed for in a controlled and legal manner. However there isn't and the general feeling is that this is a way to having talks/negotiations with the provision of more autonomy for the region.
By: John Green
- 5th October 2017 at 12:58Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Time will tell. I wouldn't think that your Spanish colleagues would evince much support for what they will incorrectly see as the likely break up of their country, depending on what exactly is meant by and how far reaching the push for autonomy is.
The Catalans will still be attached to the Iberian peninsular !
By: Agent K
- 5th October 2017 at 14:23Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's interesting JG, there's a mix of pro Spanish Madrid based and Barcelona based people, and pro Cataluña Barcelona based people, so mixed views in the main. The overriding feeling I'm hearing from all is that the likely outcome is a negotiation and agreement for more autonomy with out an actual exit from Spain.
By: silver fox
- 5th October 2017 at 21:53Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is clearly a movement for Catalan independence, how popular or widespread this is I have no idea, but I do feel that the Spanish government handled the whole affair badly indeed, surely speaking to the people is the right way, if that means going for a referendum so be it, remember we still have the question of Scottish independence festering, however the people of Scotland were given the opportunity to vote and turned it down, who knows what a democratic vote would produce in Spain, sending in riot squads and militia will probably produce more clamour for independence than a rational campaign followed by a free vote.
The EU will obviously not be in favour, just as they weren't in favour of possible Scottish independence, but the EU did not send in riot squads.
By: John Green
- 6th October 2017 at 10:00Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, they didn't but, I wouldn't mind betting that, given the degree of malevolence recently displayed towards GB, they'd quite like to have that particular resource.
By: Agent K
- 7th October 2017 at 22:02Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good Lord that Daily Mail and that Hopkins witch are getting even worse. Anybody who claims to read that toilet paper certainly shows just what they are.
By: John Green
- 8th October 2017 at 11:27Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
London has, for many years, had the appearance of a third world city. Many of the people who live and work there are immigrants who have imported their way of life.
By: Agent K
- 8th October 2017 at 21:01Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure how that in any way links to my post but yes, the Shard, Docklands, Riverside are just like any third world city.....
As for being full of immigrants. Take a look at the Tower of London (Norman), Roman ruins, yes it’s been full of immigrants for a very long time. B*stards giving us straight roads and central heating etc etc....
By: John Green
- 9th October 2017 at 12:45Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"Not sure how it links to your post...."
I thought that my comment was a fairly natural follow up. Architectural follies; worthy evidence of first world status ? Maybe, maybe.
Perhaps a much more certain indicator is the presence of rubbish, bagged and unbagged swirling uncollected around our nice straight highways - y'know the ones you mentioned and - piled high - choking the pavements.
Perhaps a better estimator of how far we are removed from the social practices of our forebears is the amount of detritus and graffiti and the picture of utter dereliction presented by some areas in our cities. Here, I'm thinking outskirts of Birmingham.
Perhaps AK the connection with your post is more than you think. For quite some time, I've planned to take my two granddaughters to visit the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park but, for unaccountable reasons have held back.
I think that your 'beef' is with Katie Hopkins. How dare she present a counter opinion ? If such is the case, the problem for you is that her opinions are very often those held by millions.
By: Agent K
- 9th October 2017 at 15:40Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not uncomfortable at all, my point being about her and the Daily Mail jumping to conclusions on the incident in question which proved very wide of the mark, trashing London and blaming terrorists and generally stirring up emotions. For one who prides himself on praising quality news and media and vilifies those who (in your view) fall short of that mark (fake news I think you'd call it?) I thought you'd understand and indeed support what I was highlighting.
Birmingham, too far North for me to comment on, I'm led to believe that anything North of Watford Gap is grim and cold.
On a serious note you really shouldn't listen to Katie and her cronies re. London, especially if planning to visit the beautiful and poignant Bomber Command memorial. I took my daughter there over the summer, during a day she attended some lectures at the Royal Institution, and we enjoyed our time in such a vibrant city and encountered no issues at all.
By: John Green
- 9th October 2017 at 16:31Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not for the first time, I think that you have some rather weird and quite false ideas:
I do not 'pride myself' on anything - apart, that is, from admiring the shine on my shoes. I do not praise 'quality news and media'. I certainly don't recognise that trait ! I like news that levers me into writing what I hope is an expressive letter or three to Govt. ministers.
I like news that rouses me from my usual torpor and propels me into what I hope is a readable rant on these pages. Listen to Katie to shape my actions ? No and again no. Not that I disagree with her sentiments. Thankfully, like most here, I'm able to make my own judgments.
It is undeniable that portions of London have the appearance of a third world habitat. It is equally undeniable that the city has, for reasons that we all know and have witnessed, taken on a sinister projection of where deeply unpleasant incidents that pose a threat to life and limb can and do occur. Would I myself visit ? Yes, no doubt. Would I take someone for whose safety I bore responsibility ? No.
All of this because chicken livered politicians with the brain capacity of an amoeba, have over the last four decades or so seen fit to open the borders of this country to any religious and racial misfits who would do the peaceable inhabitants as much harm as they could comfortably manage.
Vibrant city AK ? I am sorry that is tosh. The only vibrancy I detect is that when a vehicle with murderous intent ploughs into innocent bystanders or, a volley of small arms fire echoes around the canyons of your 'vibrant' city.
I'm pleased that you and your daughter enjoyed a happy day, free from incident in London. My advice is; don't make a habit of it.
By: John Green
- 11th October 2017 at 15:14Permalink- Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has the Blessed Theresa of the May shot herself in the foot or is it terminal ? She was interviewed on LBC on Tuesday. She was asked whether she would now vote Leave rather than the Remain of her original vote. She declined to give an answer.
How can she lead the exit negotiations when, apparently, her commitment is to the opposite camp ?
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 5th October 2017 at 11:17 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Nevertheless, you must agree that evidenced by the far from pretty scenes shown on TV there are - certainly to my eye - significant numbers of quite volatile Catalans out on the streets screaming for something. For what are they screaming ? Most of the posters shown, mention independence.
AK, matters of this kind when supported by significant numbers quickly gain momentum. All the 'legalities' in the world amount to nothing. Almost anything can become 'legal' if that 'anything' has enough tangible support.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 5th October 2017 at 11:25 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Thing is the TV/media are showing what they want to show, my week has taken me to Barcelona and Madrid, I'm currently in Madrid, and it's quite different on the ground, to my eye, and from what I hear talking to my Spanish colleagues.
What you describe becomes anarchy if not checked by a legal framework and law and order. If there is a legitimate majority then this vote should be pushed for in a controlled and legal manner. However there isn't and the general feeling is that this is a way to having talks/negotiations with the provision of more autonomy for the region.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 5th October 2017 at 12:58 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Time will tell. I wouldn't think that your Spanish colleagues would evince much support for what they will incorrectly see as the likely break up of their country, depending on what exactly is meant by and how far reaching the push for autonomy is.
The Catalans will still be attached to the Iberian peninsular !
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 5th October 2017 at 14:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
It's interesting JG, there's a mix of pro Spanish Madrid based and Barcelona based people, and pro Cataluña Barcelona based people, so mixed views in the main. The overriding feeling I'm hearing from all is that the likely outcome is a negotiation and agreement for more autonomy with out an actual exit from Spain.
As you rightly say, time will tell.
Posts: 686
By: silver fox - 5th October 2017 at 21:53 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
There is clearly a movement for Catalan independence, how popular or widespread this is I have no idea, but I do feel that the Spanish government handled the whole affair badly indeed, surely speaking to the people is the right way, if that means going for a referendum so be it, remember we still have the question of Scottish independence festering, however the people of Scotland were given the opportunity to vote and turned it down, who knows what a democratic vote would produce in Spain, sending in riot squads and militia will probably produce more clamour for independence than a rational campaign followed by a free vote.
The EU will obviously not be in favour, just as they weren't in favour of possible Scottish independence, but the EU did not send in riot squads.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 6th October 2017 at 10:00 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
No, they didn't but, I wouldn't mind betting that, given the degree of malevolence recently displayed towards GB, they'd quite like to have that particular resource.
Posts: 686
By: silver fox - 6th October 2017 at 20:23 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure if it's malevolence or sarcastic laughter, with Boris sticking his boots in at frequent intervals.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 7th October 2017 at 22:02 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Good Lord that Daily Mail and that Hopkins witch are getting even worse. Anybody who claims to read that toilet paper certainly shows just what they are.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]256180[/ATTACH]
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 8th October 2017 at 11:27 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
London has, for many years, had the appearance of a third world city. Many of the people who live and work there are immigrants who have imported their way of life.
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 8th October 2017 at 21:01 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not sure how that in any way links to my post but yes, the Shard, Docklands, Riverside are just like any third world city.....
As for being full of immigrants. Take a look at the Tower of London (Norman), Roman ruins, yes it’s been full of immigrants for a very long time. B*stards giving us straight roads and central heating etc etc....
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 9th October 2017 at 12:45 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
"Not sure how it links to your post...."
I thought that my comment was a fairly natural follow up. Architectural follies; worthy evidence of first world status ? Maybe, maybe.
Perhaps a much more certain indicator is the presence of rubbish, bagged and unbagged swirling uncollected around our nice straight highways - y'know the ones you mentioned and - piled high - choking the pavements.
Perhaps a better estimator of how far we are removed from the social practices of our forebears is the amount of detritus and graffiti and the picture of utter dereliction presented by some areas in our cities. Here, I'm thinking outskirts of Birmingham.
Perhaps AK the connection with your post is more than you think. For quite some time, I've planned to take my two granddaughters to visit the Bomber Command Memorial in Green Park but, for unaccountable reasons have held back.
I think that your 'beef' is with Katie Hopkins. How dare she present a counter opinion ? If such is the case, the problem for you is that her opinions are very often those held by millions.
How uncomfortable is that ?
Posts: 963
By: Agent K - 9th October 2017 at 15:40 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not uncomfortable at all, my point being about her and the Daily Mail jumping to conclusions on the incident in question which proved very wide of the mark, trashing London and blaming terrorists and generally stirring up emotions. For one who prides himself on praising quality news and media and vilifies those who (in your view) fall short of that mark (fake news I think you'd call it?) I thought you'd understand and indeed support what I was highlighting.
Birmingham, too far North for me to comment on, I'm led to believe that anything North of Watford Gap is grim and cold.
On a serious note you really shouldn't listen to Katie and her cronies re. London, especially if planning to visit the beautiful and poignant Bomber Command memorial. I took my daughter there over the summer, during a day she attended some lectures at the Royal Institution, and we enjoyed our time in such a vibrant city and encountered no issues at all.
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 9th October 2017 at 16:31 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Not for the first time, I think that you have some rather weird and quite false ideas:
I do not 'pride myself' on anything - apart, that is, from admiring the shine on my shoes. I do not praise 'quality news and media'. I certainly don't recognise that trait ! I like news that levers me into writing what I hope is an expressive letter or three to Govt. ministers.
I like news that rouses me from my usual torpor and propels me into what I hope is a readable rant on these pages. Listen to Katie to shape my actions ? No and again no. Not that I disagree with her sentiments. Thankfully, like most here, I'm able to make my own judgments.
It is undeniable that portions of London have the appearance of a third world habitat. It is equally undeniable that the city has, for reasons that we all know and have witnessed, taken on a sinister projection of where deeply unpleasant incidents that pose a threat to life and limb can and do occur. Would I myself visit ? Yes, no doubt. Would I take someone for whose safety I bore responsibility ? No.
All of this because chicken livered politicians with the brain capacity of an amoeba, have over the last four decades or so seen fit to open the borders of this country to any religious and racial misfits who would do the peaceable inhabitants as much harm as they could comfortably manage.
Vibrant city AK ? I am sorry that is tosh. The only vibrancy I detect is that when a vehicle with murderous intent ploughs into innocent bystanders or, a volley of small arms fire echoes around the canyons of your 'vibrant' city.
I'm pleased that you and your daughter enjoyed a happy day, free from incident in London. My advice is; don't make a habit of it.
Posts: 8,464
By: Bruce - 10th October 2017 at 13:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I spent much of my youth being driven around the outskirts of Birmingham. If it is as you describe it today, then it hasn't changed in 40 odd years.
Posts: 8,984
By: TonyT - 10th October 2017 at 13:49 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
I would rather have a bunch of immigrants living next door than Katie bloody Hopkins.... Loathsome creature.
Posts: 8,984
By: TonyT - 10th October 2017 at 13:50 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
The sun might not shine out of his butt, but is certainly will glint in the sunshine lol
http://news.sky.com/story/man-caught-with-kilo-of-gold-hidden-in-rectum-at-sri-lanka-airport-11052856
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 10th October 2017 at 14:35 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Goldring(er)
Posts: 6,535
By: John Green - 11th October 2017 at 15:14 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
Has the Blessed Theresa of the May shot herself in the foot or is it terminal ? She was interviewed on LBC on Tuesday. She was asked whether she would now vote Leave rather than the Remain of her original vote. She declined to give an answer.
How can she lead the exit negotiations when, apparently, her commitment is to the opposite camp ?
Posts: 851
By: trekbuster - 11th October 2017 at 19:52 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
She doesn't have to believe in it to pursue it, she is a politician after all.
and last time I looked she wasn't leading the negotiations personally.
time to untwist your knickers John
Posts: 686
By: silver fox - 11th October 2017 at 20:19 Permalink - Edited 1st January 1970 at 01:00
John
Not a fan of May by any stretch, but who would you have leading our government?